Two Hours, Scores of Questions, 23,000 Words: Our Interview With President Trump
President Trump spoke to four New York Times reporters — Zolan Kanno-Youngs, Tyler Pager, Katie Rogers and David E. Sanger — for nearly two hours in an interview on Wednesday evening in the Oval Office. They discussed subjects including his view of his power as commander in chief, the fatal ICE shooting in Minneapolis, immigration, the U.S. strategy toward Venezuela, the Russia-Ukraine war, Greenland and NATO, his health and his plans for further White House renovations.
Several other people were in the room, including Doug Mills, a senior photographer for The Times; Karoline Leavitt, the White House press secretary; Steven Cheung, the White House communications director; and Natalie Harp, the executive assistant to the president.
Below is a transcript of the interview, which has been lightly edited for length and to account for several instances in which Mr. Trump discussed matters off the record. On those occasions, the reporters quickly returned the interview back on the record.
At one point, Mr. Trump took a lengthy call from Gustavo Petro, the president of Colombia. Vice President JD Vance and Secretary of State Marco Rubio were in attendance for that portion, then left the Oval Office. The reporters were invited to stay in the room for the call on the condition that its contents remained off the record. The reporters agreed.The Times journalists were with the president for roughly four hours, which included the off-the-record call with Mr. Petro and a walk-through of the official residence and parts of the West Wing with Mr. Trump.
When they arrived in the Oval Office, there was a brief discussion with the president about publishing the audio recording of the interview, and then he took the call from Mr. Petro for about 55 minutes. The interview opened with a discussion about how Mr. Trump views his power on the world stage.
Venezuela, oil and international law
David E. Sanger
So let me tell you where we want to start. Your decision to capture [President Nicolás] Maduro [of Venezuela] and declare that the U.S. was in charge for the foreseeable future, I think, raised a question whether you believe — as your aide Stephen Miller put it so clearly the other night — that international niceties are gone, that countries operate by strength. I think he said “governed by strength, government by force, governed by power.” And I think that left a lot of people wondering whether you believe you have the right, as the world’s largest superpower, to go in and extinguish any threat or seize any resource you think is in the U.S. interest, particularly in the Western Hemisphere.
President Trump
If there’s a threat — you use the word threat — you certainly would have the right. Any country would have the right to do that. Without the threat, much less so. And frankly, I do believe in the niceties. I get along with a lot of people. I get along with NATO. Look at NATO. They raised their G.D.P. to 5 percent from 2 percent. They didn’t pay the 2 percent, then they pay the 5 percent. My relationship is very good with them. I mean, it’s been very good, very strong. When I did that, everyone said they’ve never seen anything like it. You would say that it was amazing to go from 2 percent to 5 percent. Don’t forget, most of them didn’t pay the 2 percent, and they’re all paying the 5 percent.
David E. Sanger
But what you’re saying is, if there’s a threat, you can go in. But in the case of Venezuela, you’ve gone in, in part, to get a resource, which you just declared today, was — President Trump
No, I went in for numerous reasons. No. 1, the drugs are pouring into the country, you know. No. 2, the people are pouring into the country — were — except now we have a 100 percent strong border. But before I got here, under Sleepy Joe Biden, the people coming into our country from jails, from prisons, from mental institutions and insane asylums — some of the worst people in the world, from drug lords to drug addicts. By the millions they came in. Think of it. They opened their jails and prisons and brought the people to our border, and let them come in. And that’s just unacceptable. That’s bad —
David E. Sanger
But it was the oil, in the end, that made a big difference to you, wasn’t it?
President Trump
No, it wasn’t. The oil happened to be there. Don’t forget, the oil will take a while, but we haven’t said, although we did get, you know, many barrels of oil today, as you probably know.
David E. Sanger
Yes, I saw it last night.
President Trump
And that’s fine, but we didn’t do that. We didn’t even know about all of the oil being stored there.
David E. Sanger
So, supposing you’re [President] Xi Jinping [of China], and you’ve watched the events of the past few days, you probably are deeply impressed with how the special operators are.
President Trump
Yeah, he was impressed.
David E. Sanger
You may also be thinking that, if you’re Xi, that you could use the same logic to decapitate and control Taiwan. Or why couldn’t [President Vladimir V.] Putin [of Russia] use that argument, same argument — it’s a threat — to grab the rest of Ukraine, or go beyond into other former Soviet states? Have you created a precedent that you may come to regret later on?
President Trump
No, because this is, this was a real threat. You didn’t have people pouring into China. You didn’t have drugs pouring into China. You didn’t have all of the bad things that we’ve had. You didn’t have the jails of Taiwan opened up and the people pouring into China. There aren’t that many people in the jails, but you didn’t have hundreds of thousands of people coming from jails and mental institutions. Pouring into China, or pouring into Russia.
David E. Sanger
But Xi regards Taiwan as a separatist. Xi would tell you Taiwan’s a threat to China, that it’s a separatist operation.
President Trump
Well, it’s a source of pride for him. He considers it to be a part of China, and that’s up to him, what he’s going to be doing. But, you know, I’ve expressed to him that I would be very unhappy if he did that, and I don’t think he’ll do that. I hope he doesn’t do that.
David E. Sanger
So you don’t think you’ve set a precedent that other countries —
President Trump
He may do it after we have a different president, but I don’t think he’s going to do it with me as president.
Katie Rogers
Given what has happened in Venezuela, the threats against Colombia, the discussions about taking Greenland, buying Greenland, however you’re framing this right now — is there anything that you think can constrain your power on the world stage? If it, if you believe that something is against national security?
President Trump
So, Katie, I rebuilt the military in my first term. I had a great first term.
[Mr. Trump picks up his phone and silences a phone call.]
We had a tremendous, tremendous economy. We had a tremendous everything. We got hit with Covid, like the rest of the world got hit with Covid. But I rebuilt the military and did it rapidly and beautifully, and some of it was given away, but actually, as much as it was, it was a lot, but it was very little compared to what we had done, given away to Afghanistan, unfortunately, and in the saddest moment, I think, in the history of our country.
I think it was the lowest point — it’s the exact opposite of what it is now. I think our country now is respected more than it ever was, and I think at that point it was respected less than it ever was. And you’re only talking about a couple of years, if you think about it. And I just think what — Afghanistan was a low point. It was like, it was like a depression for our country, the stupidity. And by the way, I was getting out, but we were going to get out with strength and dignity. We were going to use [the former U.S. military base] Bagram — we were going to keep Bagram but use Bagram for the getting out. They should have kept Bagram, primarily because of China. It’s one hour away from where they make their nuclear weapons in China. Would have been very nice, and Biden gave it away. But —
Katie Rogers
Well, you rebuilt the military —
President Trump
— it doesn’t mean that it’s gone forever.
Katie Rogers
Do you see any checks on your power on the world stage? Is there anything that could stop you if you wanted to?
President Trump
Yeah, there is one thing. My own morality. My own mind. It’s the only thing that can stop me, and that’s very good.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Not international law?
President Trump
I don’t need international law. I’m not looking to hurt people. I’m not looking to kill people. I’ve ended — remember this, I’ve ended eight wars. Nobody else has ever done that. I’ve ended eight wars and didn’t get the Nobel Peace Prize. Pretty amazing. [President Barack] Obama got it. He was there for a few weeks, and he got it. He didn’t even know why he got it. They asked him, why did he get it? He was unable to answer the question. I ended eight wars. I — If you look at those wars — these were tough wars to end, too. And let me tell you, India and Pakistan were going at it. As you know, they were going at it.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Just to follow up there, though, do you —
President Trump
But that was one of eight. But we ended eight strong wars. Some going on for more than 30 years.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
But do you feel your administration needs to abide by international law on the global stage?
President Trump
Yeah, I do. You know, I do, but it depends what your definition of international law is. But the answer is, I do. But we have to keep the United States safe. We have to keep parts of the world safe that we feel responsible for. NATO is not feared by Russia or China at all. Not even a little bit. We’re tremendously feared because of the fact that I built the military. If I didn’t rebuild the military, we’d be just like them.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
On the importance of the military —
President Trump
We spent — we spent, under my term, we spent almost a trillion dollars a year rebuilding the military. And these guys were, you know, they were dissipating it, the fools that preceded me, they were dissipating it. No, we’re respected again. We’re respected more now than we’ve ever been respected.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
On the importance of the military, what would trigger a decision to send ground troops into Venezuela?
President Trump
I wouldn’t want to tell you that, because, you know, I can’t. I can’t give up information like that to a reporter, as good as you may be. I just can’t talk about that. There’s a possibility I would do that, absolutely. You know, I had a second wave planned potentially.
David E. Sanger
Would you do it if you couldn’t get at the oil? Would you do it if they didn’t kick out the Chinese and the Russians?
President Trump
Well, I can’t tell you that. I really wouldn’t want to tell you that, but they’re treating us with great respect. As you know, we’re getting along very well with the administration that is there right now. They’re giving us everything that we feel is necessary. Don’t forget, they took the oil from us years ago.
David E. Sanger
But it’s the same, the same —
President Trump
We rebuilt their, you know, we, we built their whole oil industrial complex, and they took that away from us, and they’re giving it back.
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, have you spoken to [the interim Venezuelan leader] Delcy Rodríguez, or any of the —
President Trump
I don’t want to comment on that, no. But Marco speaks to her all the time.
Tyler Pager
But have you spoken to her?
President Trump
I don’t want to speak — I don’t want to comment on that. But I will tell you that we are in constant communication with her and the administration.
David E. Sanger
It was an interesting choice that you chose to keep her in power because you declared — rightly so, as the Biden administration had as well — that Maduro was not the legitimate president, therefore she was probably not the legitimate vice president. And yet, rather than say that the winners of the 2024 election should step in — and there was a winner to that recognized by the United States — you decided to keep in power the same corrupt regime that two weeks ago was, was there. Why did you make that decision? And at some point, when do you switch over to a democratic process?
President Trump
Well that’s what we inherited. You know, when we did the very brilliant military maneuvers that were, I think, will be read about for a long time — we have a lot better than that, too. We have the best equipment in the world, and I was responsible for getting a lot of that great equipment, but we have the best equipment.
You saw what happened, I mean, to think that — and this is sad to me — but that they lost over 100 people, and we lost nobody, that’s pretty amazing, when you think of it. We’re going into a fort. You know, this was a heavily armed fort. The reason the house was built there was, this was a military fort, very heavily armed, with a lot of, a lot of soldiers.
And to think that we could go in there and have nobody killed, not lose one aircraft, where we’re going 1,800 miles an hour over a small area with 152 different planes, different planes and helicopters, is pretty amazing to people, you know. You didn’t have a [President] Jimmy Carter crashing helicopters all over the place, that you didn’t have a Biden Afghanistan disaster where they couldn’t do the simplest maneuver. That was a simple maneuver — they should have never left from that airport. They should have used Bagram.
NATO, Ukraine and Putin
Katie Rogers
Can I circle back to what you had said about NATO? If you had to choose between obtaining Greenland and preserving NATO, what’s your higher priority there?
Well, I don’t want to say that to you, but it may be a choice. You have to understand. Russia is not at all concerned with NATO other than us. China is not at all concerned with NATO other than us, because, sadly, you know, Europe is becoming a much different place, and they really do have to shape up. I want them to shape up.
David E. Sanger
So —
President Trump
I think we’ll always get along with Europe, but I want them to shape up. I’m the one that got them to spend more on the, you know, more G.D.P. on NATO. But if you look at NATO, Russia, I can tell you, is not at all concerned with any other country but us.
David E. Sanger
So, you, you mentioned on Greenland that you —
President Trump
David E. Sanger
You mentioned on —
President Trump
And don’t forget, even at the beginning, I gave them the Javelins. Obama gave them sheets.
David E. Sanger
You mentioned that —
President Trump
And they took out those tanks at the very beginning with the Javelins. You know, if I didn’t give them those Javelins, this war would have been over immediately. But Putin would have had, you know, the whole, the whole thing would have — he was going into Kyiv, and they got stuck, and I gave them the Javelins, and they wiped away that whole long line of tanks and did it with our weapons they were given by Trump and many other things that I did. You would have — if I weren’t president — No. 1, if I were president like I should have been because the election was totally rigged, and it’s come out very loudly, but it’s coming out more and more every day, and you’ll see that. But if the election weren’t rigged and I was president, this war would have never happened.
President Trump
You know what I mean by that, David.
David E. Sanger
Yes, I know that Putin has said that, as well.
President Trump
Everybody’s said it.
David E. Sanger
On the other hand —
President Trump
Putin would have never done it. I used to talk to him about it a lot. Putin would have never, ever started this war. He understood that.
David E. Sanger
Mr. President, just to get back to the Greenland point that Katie —
[Mr. Trump speaks briefly off the record.]
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, I wanted to ask you about that on the record. Russia called the U.S. boarding that Bella tanker an act of piracy after they warned you not to do so. Despite what you’re saying, your relationship with Putin is — are you in a new/
President Trump
You didn’t say what happened. So what happened out in the high seas? Russia sailed away, didn’t they? What happened? Do you know that, right?
Tyler Pager
That the U.S. boarded the tanker after —
David E. Sanger
You mean their submarine sailed away.
President Trump
No, and their destroyer sailed away.
Tyler Pager
Are you in a new phase of —
President Trump
No, it’s a sign of respect. They don’t sail away too often. But they sailed away. They understood.
Tyler Pager
I guess the question is, how far are you willing to challenge Putin? That was something he asked you not to do it, and you did it.
Well, you know, until this, I had a great relationship with Putin. I always said, despite the fake Russia, Russia, Russia scandal. That was a scandal on the Democrats, because it was a totally made-up, horrible, contrived situation that really put our nation into a lot of danger. It could have, if it weren’t for me, and in this case, Putin, if we didn’t understand each other, we could have ended up in a world war over that hoax by [Senator] Adam Schiff [of California] and crooked Hillary Clinton and everybody else involved. It was a totally rigged hoax.
Katie Rogers
Is your relationship with him changing?
President Trump
And it put our nation at tremendous risk and danger.
Russia, China and nuclear arms limits
David E. Sanger
Well, let’s focus on your relationship with him for a moment. So, in just four weeks, you’re going to have the expiration of the last arms control agreement between the United States and Russia, as you’re very aware.
President Trump
He’d like to make a deal.
David E. Sanger
Putin would like to extend it, although you can’t legally do the full treaty. You’d have to negotiate. I’m told that he has said the price for extending it is more concessions on Ukraine.
President Trump
I’m not hearing that. I don’t hear that at all.
David E. Sanger
So do you think it’s going to get extended?
President Trump
I’ve never heard that. What I have heard is he would love to extend it. And I actually feel strongly that if we’re going to do it, I think China should be a member of the extension. China should be a part of the agreement.
David E. Sanger
And China has said they would not.
President Trump
China hasn’t really said anything about it.
David E. Sanger
So you have four weeks, because —
President Trump
I spoke to President Xi about it.
David E. Sanger
You did? What did he say?
President Trump
Well I have a lot of other things to do, but I think it’s very important, the subject we’re talking about. I spoke to President Xi about it previously, and I think he’d be a willing participant.
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, just one more —
David E. Sanger
Excuse me, you said three weeks on this, though. What, is it going to expire?
President Trump
If it expires, it expires. We’ll do a better agreement.
David E. Sanger
Mr. President, just one more in foreign policy.
President Trump
There are a lot of weaknesses to that agreement. When they negotiated that agreement, they didn’t do a very good job.
David E. Sanger
Well, there are a lot of weapons it does not cover.
President Trump
That’s right.
David E. Sanger
Russia’s exotic weapons, our — our shorter-range.
President Trump
Well there’s a lot of weapons it does cover, and they’re all covered on our side, which is not a good thing.
David E. Sanger
So you’re willing to let it expire.
President Trump
I’d rather do a new agreement that’s much better.
David E. Sanger
Well, you’re not going to do that in three weeks.
President Trump
So what? How do you know that? I mean, I can do fast agreements. I’ve always done fast agreements. Look at Venezuela. That’s about as fast as you can get.
Engaging China and pressuring Greenland
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, one more on foreign policy. Then we’ll move on to domestic policy. On Greenland, if they —
President Trump
Yeah, before you talk about Greenland, I think it’s a wonderful thing for China, for Russia and for the United States to denuclearize as much as possible. And then if you do that, you probably want to get a couple of other players involved also because there are other players.
David E. Sanger
And those would be North Korea?
President Trump
Well, you have to get some other players involved, too. So we have the most nuclear weapons, and when I was president —
David E. Sanger
Russia’s got more than we do.
President Trump
Well, they’re wrong. We have more than they do. It’s irrelevant, because it only takes one.
David E. Sanger
That’s right.
President Trump
OK, so, you know, we’re talking about thousands, and it only takes one. But we have more than they do. We have better than they do. We have better military equipment than they do. A lot of people say that was proven during —
David E. Sanger
You’re saying you will not extend —
President Trump
It’s proven, because if you look at their air defense for Venezuela, I would say it wasn’t exactly great.
David E. Sanger
You’re saying you will not extend unless the Chinese come in, as well.
President Trump
No, I think it would be appropriate for the Chinese, but I would do a deal with Russia without the Chinese. But I think — I think that China would be a good participant in a deal.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
I also want to move on to — go ahead.
Tyler Pager
Just quickly, last one on Greenland. Are you prepared to send troops to Greenland if they do not give over the territory?Well, we already have troops —
Tyler Pager
But more troops to militarily take it over.
President Trump
Sure, I’d have more.
Tyler Pager
Would you take it over with the military?
President Trump
I mean, don’t forget, we have, you know, a good section of troops. And I’ve had troops there, and I’ve upped it. We already have troops in Greenland.
David E. Sanger
I was there this summer, and you’ve got — we had 16 bases the U.S. gave up. We have the right under the treaty to reopen them, as you know.
President Trump
Well that was with Biden, gave up —
David E. Sanger
No, no, this was — it was at the end of the Cold War, OK.
President Trump
Oh, you mean in Greenland?
David E. Sanger
We had, in Greenland —
President Trump
Oh good, because you needed them at the time.David E. Sanger
— we had START. In the 1951 agreement, though, it says the United States can reopen these bases anytime you want. You can send as many troops as you want.
President Trump
That’s right.
David E. Sanger
And you haven’t done it. How come?
President Trump
Because I want to do it properly.
David E. Sanger
And properly means own it?
President Trump
Really it is, to me, it’s ownership. Ownership is very important.
David E. Sanger
Why is ownership important here?
President Trump
Because that’s what I feel is psychologically needed for success. I think that ownership gives you a thing that you can’t do, whether you’re talking about a lease or a treaty. Ownership gives you things and elements that you can’t get from just signing a document, that you can have a base.
David E. Sanger
So you’re going to ask them to buy it?
Katie Rogers
Psychologically important to you or to the United States?
Tyler Pager
And you would use military force to get that?
President Trump
I didn’t say that. You said that.
Tyler Pager
I’m asking you. Would you?
President Trump
Yeah, I wouldn’t comment on that. I don’t think it’ll be necessary.
David E. Sanger
I asked you a year ago, you may remember, at Mar-a-Lago, before your inauguration, you said, If I need to use nuclear force, if I need to use military force —
President Trump
It’s possible, if I needed it. It might upset NATO. Look, we spend a lot of money on NATO. You know a lot of people don’t think NATO is to our benefit. We’re out there fighting with Russia, stopping Ukraine from being decimated and all of the things that we do — spend a lot of money. It’s thousands of miles away. We have a big ocean in between us. We’re helping Europe, but we spend a tremendous amount of money on NATO and frankly, you know, other than the fact that I get along — I get along with virtually every leader really well, and they wouldn’t have done that.ou were shocked when I got 5 percent instead of 2 percent because nobody else could have done that but me. But with all of that being said, you know, we spend a lot of time, effort and, and money on NATO. We — we carried NATO for many years until I came along. And when I came along, I said, “What’s going on?” I believe we paid for — under [President George W.] Bush and under Biden, if you take a look under — because Biden went right back to the same stupidity — but under Obama, both Bushes. You take a look. We were carrying, in my opinion, 100 percent of NATO.
David E. Sanger
So because of that, they owe you. They owe you Greenland, in your mind?
President Trump
— and now we don’t carry them at all. In fact, when we send weapons, they pay for them, full. We send, you know, we said send weapons, probably they go to Ukraine. That’s up to them. But we send weapons to NATO, and they pay us in full.
David E. Sanger
So you’re making money from the war?
President Trump
Well, we are making money from the war, but I don’t want to make money. I want the war to stop, because I don’t want to see 30,000 people a month die. You know, last month, it was a record. They lost 30,000 between the two nations, mostly soldiers. Thirty thousand. And the month before, they lost 27,000. They’re losing, on average, 25 to 30,000 people a month, young soldiers, mostly.
You know, you read about the missiles being shot in and those — that’s bad also, but that’s a small number of deaths by comparison to the soldiers. It’s just, it’s a bloodbath, to use one of our terms from the past, it’s a total bloodbath, it’s a horrible —
Katie Rogers
Sir, we need to ask you about Minneapolis.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
I want to make sure —
President Trump
I mean, it’s the worst war since World War II. And I tell you what: By the time it finishes, if it keeps going like this, and it would be very smart and very good, on behalf of both of them, if they got a settlement.
ICE, Minneapolis and Renee Good
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
I want to make sure we have time for domestic policy, too. ICE did shoot and kill an American citizen today.
President Trump
That’s true.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
According to early reports.
President Trump
Yeah.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
We have also seen protesters met with violent tactics and pepper spray. In some cases, American citizens have also been wrongfully detained. Do any of these incidents or tactics make you think ICE has gone too far?
President Trump
Well, I think that ICE has been treated very badly. Don’t forget, ICE has gotten rid of thousands and thousands of killers, murderers. They got rid of thousands of people that were let into our country during the Biden administration so stupidly. They’re very brave, very strong people.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Well, what about this shooting today — an American citizen was shot today?
President Trump
That’s right, well —
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Does this make you uncomfortable?
President Trump
Well, everything makes me uncomfortable. I want to see nobody get shot. I want to see nobody screaming and trying to run over policemen, either, or law enforcement.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
That’s disputed by local officials and the federal officials.
President Trump
Well, if you take a look at the tape. I saw the same tape that you must have seen. I just saw it.
Katie Rogers
There were several angles of it.
David E. Sanger
There were several angles of it.
President Trump
Well, I know, but if you take a look at that, that was a vicious situation that took place. And if you go before that, and in my opinion, the screamer, that woman that was screaming, “Shame, shame, shame” — that’s not normal. That was a practiced, rehearsed, professional agitator.
Katie Rogers
Even so, are those appropriate policing tactics for somebody to fire into a vehicle like that? In your mind, is that acceptable?
President Trump
Well, they ran him over. I mean, they ran the, you know, assuming he is a policeman. Call him a policeman. He’s ICE, and call him law enforcement. The woman. First of all, she wouldn’t do anything because if you go two minutes before that took place, she was — she behaved horribly, and then she ran him over. She didn’t try to run him over. She ran him over.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
The video didn’t look like he was — he was run over.
President Trump
Well, I’ll play the tape for you right now. Do you want to just whip it out? Looked to me to be very bad. I’ve just put out the tape.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
But, sir, I guess —
President Trump
With all of it being said, no, I don’t like that happening, but I don’t like the fact that millions of people were allowed into our country that are murderers and horrible people.
[Mr. Trump turns to Natalie Harp.] Show that, show that clip.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
But have any of these, have any of these tactics made you uncomfortable? You know, you’ve had citizens that have also been wrongfully detained here.
[Mr. Trump has Ms. Harp play the video of the shooting on a laptop.]
Katie Rogers
Yeah, we’ve seen that one.
David E. Sanger
We’ve seen that video. Does not look like the ICE officer has been run over there. Now, maybe from a different angle we would see —
President Trump
Well, I — the way I look at it. [Mr. Trump continues to watch the video.] Oh sure, did you look at that?
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
I just want to —
President Trump
It’s a terrible scene.
David E. Sanger
We all agree on that.
Katie Rogers
You say it’s horrible to watch. You said that on Truth Social. But do you think that goes too far?
President Trump
I think it’s horrible to watch. No, I hate to see it.
David E. Sanger
So is this what your ICE operations —
President Trump
I also think that, including me. I think that things happen because of statements that are made. Horrible statements are made. I watched the one woman screaming, the one woman in the car before she got shot — I heard was unbelievably bad, badly behaved. You’re supposed to listen to law enforcement. You can’t run over policemen, just can’t do that.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
So just take a step back here, because this — there’s also — it’s more than just this shooting. You’ve also had American citizens that have been wrongfully detained, as well.
President Trump
That’s right, you’ve also had a lot of American citiz- — no.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
I’m just putting the question to you.
President Trump
No, no, I just wanted to —
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
But are you comfortable with this operation so far? Is this what this operation was supposed to look like?
President Trump
You’ve had many American citizens killed. You’ve had —
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Is this what this operation was supposed to look like?
President Trump
You have young Miss [Jocelyn] Nungaray killed. You’ve had so many people killed, by people that shouldn’t be in our country. These are criminals at the highest level. These are the worst criminals anywhere in the world. They came from the prisons of Venezuela. They came from the prisons of the Congo. They came from the prisons of many different countries, and Joe Biden, who was the worst president in the history of our country, allowed this to happen. Now I don’t think he had any idea. It’s like you just heard, you know, I mean, there’s not a lot of respect for Joe Biden from other leaders. You just heard that, but —
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
It sounds like you’re comfortable with this operation, all the tactics that ICE agents have used.
President Trump
No, I’m very uncomfortable with everything, I’m very uncomfortable with the fact that 11,888 murderers were allowed into our country. I’m very uncomfortable with the fact that drug dealers, drug lords — that people from mental institutions and people from jails and prisons were allowed into our country.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Another ICE case that might go before the court soon is one on — I guess the question would be, do you think ICE should be able to target people based on race and ethnicity alone?
President Trump
No, not based on race or ethnicity, no. No, I would say not. But, and I don’t think they do that. They base it based on records. You know, they find records of people that are murderers, and they try to get them out of our country.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
There’s been legal challenges that are getting at this question as well.
President Trump
Sure. It’s going to be a legal challenge. Nobody else had a legal challenge, but I do.
Immigration, citizenship and the rule of law
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Your administration has also suggested that some people who are naturalized citizens could see their citizenship stripped. Which groups do you think should lose citizenship?
President Trump
Well, I think Somalia is a disaster, to be honest with you. I look at what’s happening in Minnesota, and you look at this country — it’s one of the worst in the world. It’s acknowledged to be truly one of the most corrupt, one of the most vicious, violent countries in the world. Even the ships. They go after the ships. They don’t do that anymore because if they go after the ships, you know what, they get hit by the same missile. That we hit the drug dealers with.
David E. Sanger
I think Zolan’s question is: Would you strip them of their nationality?
President Trump
If they deserve to be stripped, I would, yes.
David E. Sanger
So what would the criteria you would want to —
President Trump
Well, we’re looking at criteria right now, but if they deserve to be stripped, David, I’d do it in a heartbeat, yes.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
It, it sounds like you’re focused on —
President Trump
When you look at what’s happened to the, to the beautiful state of Minnesota — what a beautiful place, and I love it. And it’s, first of all, the elections are corrupt as hell because I won that election three times. Nobody’s won it since Richard Nixon. I’ve won that election three times. And frankly, it’s so — I wasn’t credited with the win, but I won it three times, and there was nobody that was going to beat me in that state.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
But is the one group you’re looking at for this — are people of Somali descent?
President Trump
No, there are other groups, too. I don’t necessarily want to mention their name, but people that cause trouble. Somalia is a disaster. [Representative] Ilhan Omar [of Minnesota] is a woman that should be immediately thrown out of Congress and sent back to her, her country, from where she’s always complaining about.
David E. Sanger
So you would strip her of her —
Tyler Pager
Do you think she should lose her, her citizenship?
President Trump
Oh, absolutely.
David E. Sanger
And on what criteria?
President Trump
Well, she married her brother, and she’s a disaster.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
That lacks evidence.
President Trump
And she’s a troublemaker, and she — all she does is complain, complain, complain.
David E. Sanger
Well, that’s a First Amendment right. Once you are — complain, complain, complain — is —
President Trump
That’s all right, yeah. I think it’s a First — but she comes from a place where she should go back. I think she should go back and fix it. I’d much rather have her go back and fix it. I think she’s a disaster, and I think that she’s got a lot of problems right now. I believe she’s a very dishonest person who’s done a lot of very bad things.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
To be clear, though —
President Trump
Including the marriage of her brother, which is —
David E. Sanger
Not proven.
President Trump
— unusual. Well, I think it’s been proven. Everything I’ve read has been proven.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Completely unfounded, I believe.
President Trump
Boy, I don’t know why you people stick up for this.
Karoline Leavitt
Pull the receipts on that. It’s proven.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
I just want to. I just want to —
President Trump
I think it’s been proven, hasn’t it?
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
I just want to clarify here, just to get at the policy.
President Trump
You focus on? Wait, you focus on —
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
I’ve written about your immigration policy for some years.
President Trump
I mean, are you mostly on immigration?
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Broadly. But I want to get to the question here. Just the policy here seems you are considering stripping the citizenship of citizens of Somali descent. Is that right?
President Trump
Sure I would. I’d do it in a heartbeat if they were dishonest.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
You don’t think that your comments about those of Somali descent have painted a broad brush on your own citizens?
President Trump
I don’t care. I want great people in this country. I want people that love the country, and I think that many of the people that came in from Somalia, they hate our country. Zolan Kanno-Youngs
I’ve met plenty of Somalis that love the country.
President Trump
Not only do they hate our country. They’ve ripped off our country. They’ve ripped it off. They’ve stolen billions of dollars. It’s shocking. From where they came, they had nothing. And they come here and they steal, and it’s an embarrassment to the intelligence of the people of Minnesota and to the people of our country.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
In your view —
President Trump
That they would be allowed to do it.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
I’ve heard many people that say this is generalizing a population. And find these comments insulting.
President Trump
You call it whatever you want.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
But in your view, do judges have the authority to stop you from doing what you want to do when it comes to domestic policy?
President Trump
Well, I think they do under certain circumstances, but I think I have the right to. You know, I was elected on law and order, among other things. The border, law and order, the strong military — all the things that I’m doing a really good job of.
Tyler Pager
So on those areas —
President Trump
I mean, who would have thought, and your people do these numbers. Seven months, nobody came across the border. Who would have thought that’s possible? And I didn’t go back to the legislature like Joe Biden said — Sleepy Joe said I’d have to go back to the legislature to get approval. I didn’t get approval. I just said, “Stop the border. You stop it right now,” from the day I came in. And we have nobody coming through the border right now. It’s pretty amazing.
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, just to understand, on those issues, law and order, the military, et cetera, do you think that the judges have no right to stop you on anything within those categories?
President Trump
No, I didn’t say that. Look, I’ve been stopped on some things. I mean, the judges have held things up, and they’ve made it bad. Now, I will say, if I feel it’s important to invoke the Insurrection Act, which I have the right to do, that’s a different thing, because then I have the right to do pretty much what I want to do. But I haven’t done that.
David E. Sanger
But you haven’t done that. You stopped short of that.
President Trump
No, I haven’t, and by the way, 48 percent of the presidents have used it, and in some cases, they’ve used it by — I know at least in one case, over 20 times. I have the right to use the Insurrection Act.
David E. Sanger
What stopped you?
Katie Rogers
What’s stopping you from doing that?
President Trump
I haven’t really felt the need to do it. Look at Washington, D.C. I took it from one of the worst, most unsafe cities in the country into one of the safest cities in the country. We have virtually no crime in Washington, D.C., right now, and —
David E. Sanger
Five murders last month.
President Trump
What?
David E. Sanger
Five murders last month.
President Trump
Well, I haven’t seen that.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Crime has gone down, but there have been murders.
President Trump
Well, its gone down 88 percent, and the murders have really slowed down. Are you including the terrorist attack as a murder? Because that was sort of a different situation.
David E. Sanger
That was November, yeah.
President Trump
But, but Washington, D.C., has gone from one of the most dangerous cities in the country to one of the safest. If you look at what’s happening in Louisiana — take a look at what’s going on with that state, where the governor is cooperating. The numbers are — on New Orleans, the numbers are way, way down in a short period of time. If you look at Memphis, Tenn., it was a hellhole of crime. The numbers are way, way down in just a matter of weeks. You can look at Chicago — and even though we had no cooperation from the governor, who’s a loser — even though we had no cooperation, we brought the numbers down with a minimal force. If you look at Los Angeles, the top law enforcement official said that if we didn’t go into Los Angeles a year ago, we would have had a city that was literally taken over. They were, they were not able to handle it.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Sir, just to go back to —
President Trump
You know that in Los Angeles, you know that.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
You’ve described your immigration policy as a success.
President Trump
No, no, but I’m telling you what the sheriff said and what the law enforcement said.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
I just, I want to ask if part of your immigration agenda is also aimed at changing the racial makeup of this country.
President Trump
No, not at all.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Is part of this, this agenda aimed at making the country whiter as well?
President Trump
No, I just want people that love our country. It’s very simple. I want people that love our country. I want people that respect our country, respect the laws of our country, and I want people that can embrace our country.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Because you’ve, you’ve shut the door to all refugees, besides Afrikaners.
President Trump
I want people that can make America great again.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
You have a travel ban on majority African and Muslim nations.
David E. Sanger
Zolan raises an interesting point, though. The only immigrants who can come in right now are white South Africans, right?
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Refugees.
David E. Sanger
In the way of refugees.
President Trump
Well, I haven’t seen that. I mean, I certainly haven’t seen that. But over the years, it’s been very much the opposite of that. Very, very much the opposite of that. People are coming into our country. Nobody’s doing it based on race.
Civil rights, antisemitism and the Republican Party
David E. Sanger
So, do you believe, sir, that the civil rights protections that Americans had, starting in the 1960s and so forth, resulted ultimately in the discrimination against white men?
President Trump
Well, I think that a lot of people were very badly treated. White people were very badly treated, where they did extremely well and they were not invited to go into a university or a college. So I would say in that way, I think it was unfair in certain cases. I think it was also, at the same time, it accomplished some very wonderful things, but it also hurt a lot of people — people that deserve to go to a college or deserve to get a job were unable to get a job. So it was, it was a reverse discrimination.
David E. Sanger
And your way of dealing with it in the past year has been to cut funding to a lot of major research universities, to force change, right?
President Trump
No, I cut funding to people and universities like Columbia, like Harvard. We’re in the midst of that and others, as you know — you write about very well — where there’s tremendous discrimination against people that happen to be Jewish. We have — the antisemitism in this country is shocking. I mean, it’s, it’s — what’s gone on in the last 10 or 12 or 15 years is actually amazing. It started with President Obama.
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, I’d love to ask —
President Trump
President Obama caused a lot of problems in this country. He’s not our worst president, but he’s one of our worst presidents. He’s caused tremendous division in our country. Yes.
Tyler Pager
I just have to quickly follow up on your point about antisemitism. There’s a debate within the conservative movement right now where some leading conservative figures have espoused antisemitic views. Some leading individuals have not condemned them — Tucker Carlson, others. Where do you fall? Do you think there’s room within the Republican coalition, the Make America Great movement, for people with antisemitic views?
President Trump
No, I don’t. I think we don’t need them. I think we don’t like them.
Tyler Pager
Do you condemn those views?
President Trump
Certainly. Look, if you talk about the antisemitic views, there’s been nobody better for us. As an example, I just got the Israel Award, which is the biggest award they give. It was just given to me. First time it was ever given to anybody outside of Israel.
Tyler Pager
Do you think, do you think —
President Trump
Wait, wait. And the reason is that there has been no better president in the history of the world as we know it that has been stronger or better and less antisemitic, certainly, than Donald Trump. I have been the best president of the United States in the history of this country toward Israel. And that’s, by the way, acknowledged by everybody, including the fact that we have peace in the Middle East, and that’s going to hold. We have peace in the Middle East. And the reason we have peace in the Middle East is, I bombed the hell out of a place called Iran with this bomber right here, the B-2, and it was a total obliteration, which now CNN even admits was a total obliteration. And you see what’s happening in Iran now.
David E. Sanger
You suggested the other day that they were reconstituting their nuclear program.
President Trump
Well, if they do, I’ll — if they do, I’ll take it out. Right now they’re trying to survive.
David E. Sanger
We haven’t, we haven’t seen — have you seen any evidence? Have you seen the evidence that they reconstituted?
sident Trump
Right now the leaders of Iran are trying. But I will tell you, if they kill people, I will hit them very hard.
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, just quickly: Do you condemn someone like Nick Fuentes, who — and his antisemitic views?
President Trump
I don’t know him.
Tyler Pager
You have met with him.
President Trump
I had dinner with him, one time, where he came as a guest of Kanye West. I didn’t know who he was bringing. He said, “Do you mind if I bring a friend?” I said, “I don’t care.” And it was Nick Fuentes? I don’t know Nick Fuentes.
Katie Rogers
What about Paul Ingrassia? He works in your administration and has aligned himself with those views.
President Trump
I don’t know that. It’s possible. I have thousands of people working here.
Tyler Pager
Do you condemn — do you think leaders of the Republican Party should condemn figures who espouse antisemitism?
President Trump
Well, I’ll tell you what. From my own personal standpoint, absolutely, because I condemn. I have a daughter who’s married to a Jewish person. My daughter happens to be Jewish, beautiful, three grandchildren are Jewish. I’m very proud of them. I’m very proud of the whole, that whole family. I am the least antisemitic person probably there is anywhere in the world.
Katie Rogers
Can we move on to the economy? I would like to ask you about — Republican pollsters lately are warning that you and the party is losing ground with young voters, particularly young men, who are concerned with job prospects and the rise of A.I.
President Trump
Well, I might be, let me — could I have the TikTok thing?
Katie Rogers
But what would you say to those young voters and those young men?
President Trump
Well, I’d say they’re rigged polls. Look, the polls are rigged just like the writers are rigged.
Katie Rogers
But these are Republican pollsters who are warning your party that you are not doing enough to focus on American jobs.
President Trump
I don’t know. I think, I think I can tell you I’m very popular. This just came out, from TikTok. It came out just recently that Donald Trump was No. 1 on TikTok and the most popular person. You can have these. I don’t think you’ll use it.
Katie Rogers
I don’t doubt that you’re popular on TikTok, but —
President Trump
But 339 billion, I had 331, 339 billion views, all-time views of No. 1. TikTok, the all-time-in-history number. This is put out by TikTok, not by me. This is the year-end in TikTok. No. 1 most followed account. No. 1 most viewed account — 6.3 billion total views, 4.6 million views for TikTok. Nobody’s ever had numbers like that.
David E. Sanger
No question there’s a fascination with you —
President Trump
Mostly, I don’t know why. Someday you’ll explain that to me, David —
David E. Sanger
— but Katie’s question was sort of an economic one.
President Trump
— and someday you’ll write truthfully because what I’ve done, nobody’s been able to do, nobody.
Katie Rogers
But what do you say to young voters who are worried about the rise of A. I.?
President Trump
Including being back here, after the press thought maybe we got rid of this guy finally. Here we are in the Oval Office. Right? Who would have thought when I announced I was going to run, everyone said, “Oh, really, Jan. 6.” Well, Jan. 6 turned out to be a little bit different than people think. But look, most viewed moments, almost all of them are Trump moments. And this is TikTok’s —
Jan. 6 and retribution
David E. Sanger
What do you mean when you say Jan. 6 turned out to be different than people thought?
President Trump
Well, I think a lot of people disagree with the Jan. 6. I’ll give you an example — when I say walk or march patriotically and — to the Capitol. What was it?
Karoline Leavitt
BBC?
President Trump
Not BBC. Patriotically.
Karoline Leavitt and Steven Cheung
Peacefully and patriotically.
President Trump
So, I made the statement — walk, march peacefully and patriotically to the Capitol. Peacefully. And they left it out. I’ll tell you what. The unselect committee should be indicted. They destroyed all of the evidence. You know why? Because the evidence were all my way. They left out the statement. They refused to take it, peacefully and patriotically. Almost everybody, they refused to go because when you say that, it means you’re innocent. They refuse to say that I offered [former Speaker] Nancy Pelosi 10,000 soldiers if they needed, and she turned it down. Now it turned out, because of her daughter’s documentary, that that turned out to be right, but even worse is the unselect committee of political thugs, which had no Republicans. It had [Representative Adam] Kinzinger [of Illinois], and it had [Representative] Liz Cheney [of Wyoming]. They weren’t Republicans. They were losers. Two losers. They were thrown out of the Republican Party by the voters. But if you take a look at what happened, they destroyed and deleted all of the information, including people that said things that were so false. They destroyed it. If you go back now to the unselect committee that worked over a year, and you try and find any information, they will say, I’m sorry, we deleted and destroyed all of it. There’s nothing. You know why? It all came out my favor, and those people should be indicted. Because if anybody else destroyed and deleted important information like that, they would be indicted. And you know why they did? Because everything showed, all of the information showed that I was right.
David E. Sanger
Sounds like retribution you’re interested in.
President Trump
No, well, it’s not retribution. But it should be retribution.
Tyler Pager
Katie wanted to ask about —
President Trump
How would you like to go through a two-year witch hunt just on the committee itself? Where they had no Republican fighting for me, because the two people that were on there would just put — that was a joke. They put them on, they said, “Oh, bipartisan.” It was disgraceful. So for a year and a half, two years, whatever it lasted, every night they had — and then look how well I did.
Can you imagine, to do well after that? But wait a minute, David, there’s no retribution. They destroyed and deleted all of the information. In my opinion, they should be indicted for that. They’re criminals. Everyone who’s on that committee should be indicted.
Tyler Pager
Have you told Pam Bondi to do so?
President Trump
No, I haven’t, but I hope they do it, because frankly.
Katie Rogers
Can I take you back to this?
President Trump
They should be indicted. If I destroyed everything — if I destroyed everything, I guarantee you they’d go after me. Think of it. I went through years of persecution, and I didn’t do anything wrong, and that’s why I’m here.
The economy, affordability and A.I.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Mr. President, so many voters voted for you because of the economy. And I think Katie just wanted to get back to that.
President Trump
The economy is probably the best it’s — look, the economy right now. I have trillions and trillions of dollars coming into this economy, more than any nation has ever had, by far. Our economy is unbelievable. And I’m bringing down the prices. Remember this, I didn’t cause the high prices. Biden did.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
What would you say to voters, though?
President Trump
Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, one second.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
What do you say to voters, though, who think that you are more focused on American jobs and less on foreign conflicts?
President Trump
I inherited a mess. Listen, I inherited a mess.
I inherited a highly inflated, horribly run country. The borders were bad. The military was bad. The Afghanistan was the worst, worst day in the history of our country. Maybe in the history, I think it was the lowest point. You know what, that was the lowest point, and we may right now be at the highest point.
Katie Rogers
There are good signs, and the economy is growing. Wages are keeping up with inflation —
President Trump
Thanks.
Katie Rogers
— but there are other indicators that people are — are hurting. High earners, they’re — 10 percent of high earners make up for half the economy growth.
President Trump
Well, there may be, there may be — and you know what, I’m bringing — they are hurting because of Biden. I’m bringing down prices.
Katie Rogers
No, high earners are not hurting. It’s the low earners. It’s the middle earners. It’s the people that you have promised to help. What do you say to them?
President Trump
Well, if you look at my, if you look at my achievements, the greatest, percentage-wise, the greatest beneficiaries of my economy in my first term were low-income workers. And it’s turning out to be right now — blue-collar workers are doing better than anybody else, percentage-wise, as they measure that. I inherited a mess. It was high prices, it was high inflation, it was high crime. You know, did you see where murders are the lowest they’ve ever been? Did you see where crime is at the lowest point it’s ever been? You know why? Because I closed the border, and we don’t have criminals pouring into our country.
Tyler Pager
Mr. President. Do you — a few more on the economy. Do you think, are you basically telling Americans that they have to wait a little bit longer, particularly low- and middle-income, Americans to get —
President Trump
Yeah, I can’t fix what they destroyed in four years immediately. But if you look at it, I have more investment income coming in than any president, than any country has ever had. What I’ve done, I mean, the money coming into our country — we are building auto plants, A.I. plants. We’re building things that nobody thought possible. They’re leaving Mexico, they’re leaving Canada. They’re leaving other countries.
David E. Sanger
Worrying you that you’ve got a bit of an A.I. bubble here?
President Trump
They’re leaving, by the way, they’re leaving Japan. They’re leaving Germany. They’re coming over to build. The tariffs have made us a fortune.
Katie Rogers
How do you keep in touch with what everyday Americans are worried about? And this TikTok is an example of that. Do you monitor that? Like, when is the last time you went and went out and talked to voters about the economy?
President Trump
Well, I don’t monitor it. I got a copy of that. That’s put out by TikTok. It’s not put out by me. Those numbers are TikTok numbers. No. 1 on TikTok by far. And I did something I’m very proud of. I made a deal to sell TikTok, and in order to do that, I had to get approved by China, and President Xi was great.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Your vice president worked on that, as well.
President Trump
He did.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
What will it take for your vice president to get your endorsement for the presidential election?
President Trump
Well, I think he’s doing a great job. It’s very — far too early to think about that. We have three years and one month left, but he’s doing a great job. Marco is doing a great job.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Who do you rely on more, him or Marco?
President Trump
I rely on them both. Actually, I mean different things, different strengths, frankly.
David E. Sanger
Tell us about their strengths.
President Trump
Well, I don’t want to do that, but they do have different — they have great strengths, but somewhat different. But they’re great. They’re both doing a great job.
Tyler Pager
Do you think — do you think one of them —
President Trump
I couldn’t be happier with either.
David E. Sanger
What — would you just give us an example of what you would rely on Secretary Rubio for, what kind of things?
President Trump
Well, you saw it today. I mean, we have a situation in Venezuela. We have a situation in Colombia. Now I can put out a statement that, in fact, you might do that.
[Mr. Trump speaks briefly off the record and dictates a Truth Social post to an aide.]
David E. Sanger 48:14
You don’t mind if we put that back on the record, since it will be out in a moment?
President Trump
Now we’ll go back on the record. Yeah, yeah, we’ll go back on, sure.
David E. Sanger
That’s fine.
Katie Rogers
Can I ask one more on the economy? I’ve got one more for you on the economy. The $2,000 —
President Trump
Do you think Biden could do that? I don’t think so …
Tariffs, the national debt and the Fed
Katie Rogers
You’ve promised $2,000 checks to Americans based off of your tariff revenues. When can they expect those?
President Trump
I did do that? When did I do that?
Katie Rogers
Well, I mean, your —
President Trump
Yeah, I’m thinking. Well, I did $1,776 for the military.
Tyler Pager
When will those Americans get those checks?
President Trump
Well, I am going to — the tariff money is so substantial. That’s coming in, that I’ll be able to do $2,000 sometime. I would say toward the end of the year.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Don’t you need Congress? Don’t you need Congress to help you with that?
President Trump
No, I don’t believe we do. We have it coming in from other sources.
David E. Sanger
You’ve said the tariff revenue, though, will go to that. You said the tariff revenue would go to deficit reduction.
President Trump
Yeah.
David E. Sanger
You’ve said the tariff revenue would go to defense.
President Trump
Right. It’s going to all of those things.
David E. Sanger
Is there enough tariff revenue?
President Trump
Sure, we do.
David E. Sanger
I mean, that strikes me that what you’re getting in tariff revenue does not cover all of that.
President Trump
And we also have growth. We also have tremendous growth in the country. We have tariff revenue, which is tremendous. It’s given us tremendous national security. You know, I’ll give you an example
David E. Sanger
You’ve also got — you’ve got, also got tremendous national debt.
President Trump
You do. Well, that I inherited.
David E. Sanger
I mean, when, when you and I did an interview in 2016, you were worried about —
President Trump
That I inherited because guys like Biden gave away money like, like a fool. You have to remember that we have tremendous growth in our country. And if the growth is as good as I think, the debt will look very small.
David E. Sanger
When you —
President Trump
Because the way you get rid of debt, and I’ve done, I’ve had — I’ve lived on debt for my life. And I’ve loved debt, you know. I’ve always liked it. As I get older, I like it less, you know I always say, but I don’t have debt anymore. But it’s very interesting, I’ve lived on debt and I’ve done well by debt. I’ve made billions of dollars because of debt, but that is always risky.
David E. Sanger
In 2016 you were — said to me in interview we did with Maggie Haberman [a White House correspondent for The Times] that you were concerned because the debt was about to cross, I think at that moment, 20 trillion. We’re now in the mid-30s.
President Trump
Right.
David E. Sanger
A lot of that increase happened in your first term.
President Trump
Well, it happened because of the fact that I had to rebuild the military. I had to rebuild our economy. Our country was broken. We just suffered with a terrible president named Barack Hussein Obama, a terrible president and a terrible vice president, even worse. And frankly, the Middle East wars that were during the Bush administration were a disaster for this country because it was 9 trillion out and nothing in. And I always said: Don’t go in, but if you’re going to go in, keep the oil. But they didn’t keep the oil.
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, just one more on the economy.
President Trump
I inherited a mess. I inherited a mess the first time, and I also inherited a broken border, and I fixed it, and it was really good. And I built the wall. I built 700 miles of wall, which nobody ever wants to talk about, because without the wall, you wouldn’t have the good border that we have right now. The wall is a very big thing, but that was nothing compared to how bad the border was when I took it over this time, that was peanuts compared to what it is right now.
Tyler Pager
Just on the economy I understand that —
President Trump
And now, by the way, now it’s the best it’s ever been. In a short period of time, I stopped prisoners, drug dealers, drug addicts and all the people coming, jailbirds. I stopped these people from coming and it took me a very short period of time —
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Border crossings are at a record low. Tyler?
President Trump
And you know what? In a very, in less than a year, I’ve taken a country that was a laughingstock all over the world, and I made it the hottest country. You know, we’re the hottest country right now in the world, which The New York Times should be happy about.
Tyler Pager
Mr. President.
President Trump
Because The New York Times becomes hotter because I made it hot. I mean, it’s too bad that I’m benefiting The New York Times, but that’s the way it goes.
Tyler Pager
Just one more on the economy. I understand that you made a decision about the Fed chair and that you’re going to announce Kevin Hassett, is that accurate?
President Trump
I have in my mind a decision. I haven’t talked about it with anybody, but I have it in my mind.
Tyler Pager
Will it be Kevin Hassett?
President Trump
I don’t want to say that, but he’s certainly one of the people that I like.
The midterm elections, mail-in ballots and democracy
Tyler Pager
OK. And then moving back to elections, if Democrats win the House in the midterms, are you going to respect the results of those elections?
President Trump
I always respect the results of elections, but the elections in our country are rigged. We have a bad election. We have to have voter ID. We should have same-day election. We should not have mail-in votes. Very few countries, almost none, do mail-in voting. Do you know why they don’t do it? Because when you do mail-in voting, inherently it’s a rigged election.
Tyler Pager
Under the current elections in November, millions of Americans will go to the polls. Will you respect those results?
President Trump
I always respect elections. I won the last election by — I made it too big to rig. They, by the way, they cheated like hell on the last election, but I made it too big to rig.
David E. Sanger
So when those elections —
President Trump
The last election, I won the popular vote by a lot. I won the, all seven swing states. I won the districts, I guess they call it. [Mr. Trump turns to Ms. Harp.] Did you have the picture of that red map? I’ll give it to them.
David E. Sanger
Will you make any effort to stop mail-in ballots for this coming election?
President Trump
Well, I think mail-in ballots are terrible, other than for people that are very sick or the military that’s away.
David E. Sanger
Well, some states have used them for, for years, but you through the post office could control —
President Trump
Well, I did well in Florida, I have the all-time record in Florida, and that’s mail-in ballots. But you know what? They run it better, much better. Look —
David E. Sanger
So would you seek to stop?
President Trump
When you have mail-in ballots, you have crooked elections. It’s very simple.
David E. Sanger
Would you seek to, would you seek to stop mail-in ballots in this election? In this coming election?
President Trump
Well, I’d love to stop mail-in ballots. It takes two to tango. Think of it. The Democrats will not approve voter ID. There’s only one reason they won’t approve it, because they cheat, and if they didn’t cheat, they couldn’t win. Here’s the thing: They have policy that’s so bad. The Democrats’ policy is so bad that if they didn’t cheat, they could never win an election.
David E. Sanger
You once threatened, I think, during the 2020 election, to use the National Guard to seize election boxes. You may remember that. You didn’t, in the end, do it.
President Trump
Well, I should have.
David E. Sanger
Would that have been, would that be an option?
President Trump
I don’t know that they are sophisticated enough. You know, they’re good warriors. I’m not sure that they’re sophisticated enough in the ways of crooked Democrats and the way they cheat, to figure that out.
David E. Sanger
OK, would you think of using them?
President Trump
But many, many things took place in the 2020 — and it’s coming out already — the 2020 election. And by the way, the 2024 election, there was a lot of cheating, too, but I won by a lot because it was too big to rig.
Katie Rogers
Can I ask you —
President Trump
We have very dishonest elections. OK, I say it to you loud and clear. I don’t know if it’s politically correct or not to say it. I shouldn’t complain. I won three times. I mean, I won three times. I did great the second time, but I didn’t get credited with that. Covid was a problem, too. It made it easier to cheat. But the last election, that was so big that they tried, but they were unable to do it.
Katie Rogers
You have said that the main difference between your first term and this term is the first term you were hunted, and in this term you’re the hunter. Who are you hunting next? Like, what, who do you believe —
President Trump
I just hate dishonest people. I just hate it. I think that the people that are dishonest people that cheat on elections, I think they’re just terrible. I hate seeing what I’m seeing in Minnesota, with all of the corrupt people that happen to be largely from Somalia, but it’s other people, too, because people, you know, they encourage. I think the governor is totally corrupt. I think the governor is a totally corrupt governor. I think JB Pritzker is a terrible, terrible governor. I think that Gavin Newscum is a terrible governor.
Katie Rogers
Your chief of staff has said that it is retribution. What you do — was she right?
President Trump
Say it again.
Katie Rogers
She told Vanity Fair that what you do is tantamount to retribution. It is retribution. Was she right?
President Trump
No, I don’t know if that’s what she said, but I don’t want retribution. I want fairness. If somebody’s cheating, if they steal billions of dollars in Minnesota, I want those people caught, and I want them prosecuted.
The president’s health and age
David E. Sanger
Mr. President, we’ve got just — I know your time is limited. We’ve got a few questions, one or two on your health, and then one or two on Ukraine. On your health, you mentioned the other day that you use more aspirin than prescribed.
President Trump
I do. No, I used a large dose.
David E. Sanger
Large dose.
President Trump
You know why? I want nice, thin blood going through my heart.
David E. Sanger
We all, we all do.
President Trump
Otherwise, I probably — probably wouldn’t be here. But my heart is very good.
David E. Sanger
Do you use, do you use any other blood thinners?
President Trump
Nope.
David E. Sanger
And have you ever been?
President Trump
I don’t like blood thinners because everyone I know that took them is dead. They’re almost like trial and error. Oh, let’s try this one. Let’s try that. I don’t try — the only blood thinner I use is aspirin.
David E. Sanger
And have you, is it because you’ve ever been diagnosed with heart disease of any kind?
President Trump
No, I never was diagnosed.
Katie Rogers
Have you ever had a heart attack?
President Trump
I’ve had — I’ve taken a large aspirin for 30 years. I’ve never had a heart attack.
Tyler Pager
Did you get the Covid and flu vaccines this year?
President Trump
Yes.
Tyler Pager
Do you think all Americans should get them?
President Trump
It’s up to them.
Tyler Pager
And do you think R.F.K. [Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.] has gone too far in discouraging that?
President Trump
No, I think it’s — I think it’s good. He’s basically, he’s giving the ones that they feel, after a lot of research, are important, and after that, it’s up to the parents what they want. Parents can go and give the children as much as they want. But he basically feels, and I agree with him, that it’s up to the parents. In other words, there’s no mandate.
Tyler Pager
Do you want your grandchildren to be vaccinated?
President Trump
It depends on which vaccine — if you’re talking about polio vaccine and various vaccine, absolutely, yes.
Tyler Pager
OK, and then one other general one. You’ve talked about many of your friends, including some of your staff, have taken various forms of the GLP medicines, weight-loss drugs. Have you yourself ever taken any of those?
President Trump
No, I have not.
Katie Rogers
You’re eight years older —
President Trump
I probably should.
Katie Rogers
You’re eight years older now than you were when you started your first term. What is harder about the job now?
President Trump
I think it’s easier for me. I feel physically the same. I feel the way I did 40 years ago. You know, I played golf a couple of weeks ago with Gary Player. He turned 90 years old. Shot 71. He talks perfectly. I’ve known people — Bernie Marcus recently passed away, but he was 95. He was sharp as a tack. I dealt with him at 93 and 94 — he was 100 percent. He was the same guy that he was many years before. I’ve known him for a long time. Good guy. I’ve known many people in their 90s who are sharp, 100 percent. Gary Player is an example — he turned 90. Not just the fact that he shot a 71 — he’s a great player — but the fact that he’s so sharp mentally. And I think Joe Biden is the worst thing that ever happened to old people.
Katie Rogers
Well, how is it seditious to ask about your age and your health when it was a centerpiece of your campaign against Biden?
President Trump
Why is it what?
Katie Rogers
Seditious and treasonous?
David E. Sanger
You have, you have, at various moments, put out on Truth Social using the word sedition to describe —
President Trump
Well, I think this — Look, I’ve gone out of my way to take physical exams more than anybody — I just feel it’s important, because I think that people that are president ideally should be in good health, and they should be good cognitively. I’ve taken three cognitive exams. Nobody, no other president has ever taken one. And when you get into the middle to the end questions — you know, after many questions, they get to be rough questions — you’d have a hard time answering them, all of you. You’d have a hard time answering them successfully. I aced all three of them. I took one not so long ago. I’m taking a big risk when I take one, because it’s — they’re taken publicly. You know, they’re from a military hospital, Walter Reed, and I would imagine that if I did badly, it would have been all over the place.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Sir, you have —
President Trump
But wait a minute. I aced — I aced those. I got perfect marks on them. The doctors, that I didn’t know, they gave me those exams, said you rarely see somebody ace them. And I took them, I said, you know, if I do badly — it’s possible I could do badly, I don’t know, I haven’t taken lots of tests. I mean I was good at tests, but you have to take lots of tests — I got perfect marks on them. And actually, I’m very glad I took them, because it shuts people up. Biden couldn’t have answered — I mean, he might have gotten the first three questions right, but after that, he wouldn’t have been able to, and other people, too — many people. I think it’s actually very important for a president of the United States and a vice president to take a cognitive test.
Tariffs and the Supreme Court
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Sir, if the Supreme Court rules against tariffs, will you respect that ruling?
President Trump
Well, I’ll have to find some other alternative. It won’t be as clean, it won’t be as pretty as it is right now.
David E. Sanger
What is that alternative? [Section] 301?
President Trump
Well, you have a lot of alternatives. You could take a look at the word “license.” You know what I mean by that. Do you know what I mean? You could take a look at the word “license.” License is a very pretty word. It’s sort of strange. I’m allowed to license, because when you license, you get, you know, you get money for licensing things. So I have the right to license. I have the right to do numerous things, and then, actually, at the end of that — [Mr. Trump’s phone rings]. Excuse me, hold it, OK. [Mr. Trump silences his phone.]
We don’t play games with you, all right. I have the right to do other things, but this is very tidy. I’ll give you an example, very quickly. I did something that nobody else has ever been able to do. I got countries to agree to raise their health care so that our health care comes way down, and it’s going to come down.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
On the Supreme Court, though, would you be disappointed in those that you nominated?
President Trump
No, no, but wait a minute. If I didn’t have tariffs, I wouldn’t have been able to do it. I told all of the other countries, if you’re not going to improve it — they had to agree to lift their prices. It’s called, look — it’s called, you know about, do you know about what I’m talking about?
Katie Rogers
I actually would like you to explain what you mean by “licensing is a beautiful word.”
President Trump
I’m lowering the drug prices. I’m lowering the drug prices down to what the lowest price anywhere in the world is, so that we won’t be paying the highest prices. We’ll be paying the equivalent of the lowest prices. And this is something that people can’t believe this happened, because depending on the way you want to do your math, it could be thousands of a percent, or it could be 90 percent or 80 percent. It’s called “most favored nation.” So you take the nation that’s the lowest, the absolute lowest in the whole world — that’s what we’re paying. And no nation agreed to it.
And I called the nations, and I said to the prime ministers and presidents, “You have to do it.”
“We will not do it, sir. We’re not going to double or triple our price.” [Mr. Trump appears to be quoting the world leaders he called.]
Again, it’s double or triple, because the world is bigger than that. So therefore, you understand the averages. As an example, a pill that sells for $10 in London, OK, $10, will sell for $130 in New York. That means it’s 13 times more expensive. Now the pill will sell for $30 in London, it will sell for $30 in New York. And the countries have agreed.
But every single country, for every other president, if they even tried to do it, they could never do it. They tried — the countries were all saying, “No, we’re not going to do that, because we’re not going to double our health care.” OK, so I said to them, “Well, if you’re not going to do that, then I’m going to charge you a tariff, and the tariff will be more money than you’re talking about.” And they immediately said, “Uh, sir, uh, we will do it.” So — and we have now — think of it, we’re going to be reducing our drug prices at numbers that nobody’s ever seen. Most favored nations. We’re going to have the lowest drug prices anywhere in the world.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Tariffs are so important to you. Would you be disappointed in the people that you’ve nominated to the Supreme Court if they rule against it?
President Trump
Yes, I would be.
David E. Sanger
Mr. President, in another —
President Trump
I think tariffs — I think tariffs are — they’ve made us nationally secure. I just told you about most favored nations. Without tariffs— without the threat of tariffs — I didn’t have to invoke them. But without the threat of tariffs, I could never, ever even think about getting these countries — they all said no. They said no for years. And because of the threat of tariffs, they all said yes — immediately.NT
David E. Sanger
Mr. President, we don’t want to keep you from your dinner, so —
President Trump
Big national security, because of tariffs.
The Ukraine war, nuclear weapons and Putin
David E. Sanger
We wanted to ask you about one more negotiation in national security. You had hoped to get an agreement between [President Volodymyr] Zelensky [of Ukraine] and Putin before Thanksgiving. Then you hoped to get one for Christmas. Here we are in January —
President Trump
It’s disappointing to me.
David E. Sanger
But President Zelensky described to us the 20-point plan publicly. He said that it gives him Article 5-like protections. And we asked him what that meant, and he said, if there is an agreement, and you get the cease-fire and the peace agreement, and Russia reinvades — this is the fear — the United States and its allies would come in, and —
President Trump
Well, let’s put it this way. Its allies — all of Europe, other countries that are going into it, and the United States.
David E. Sanger
Right. But that means that the — I guess the question is, if they reinvaded, would you be willing to go to war to defend them with, against a nuclear arm?
President Trump
Well, I feel strongly they wouldn’t reinvade, or I wouldn’t agree to it. I feel strongly that they would not reinvade.
David E. Sanger
But if they did —
President Trump
I think this — if I weren’t involved, No. 1, that agreement would have no chance of getting done. And No. 2, by this time, Russia would have taken over all of Ukraine. Which was its initial wish.
David E. Sanger
So, weeks ago you were, you were showing this 20-point plan to Putin. Has he come back to you and told you what he thought of it?
President Trump
Yeah.
David E. Sanger
What are you hearing?
President Trump
I think he wants to make a deal.
David E. Sanger
Is he going to agree to the 20 points?
President Trump
But I’ve thought about that — I’ve thought that for a long time. I’ve had cases —
Tyler Pager
Do you still trust him?
President Trump
Well, I’ve had — double. I’ve had cases where I had Putin all done and Zelensky wouldn’t make the deal, which shocked me. You saw a little example sitting right in that seat. Then I had cases where it was the reverse. I think now they both want to make a deal, but we’ll find out.
Tyler Pager
Do you still trust Putin after this latest incident where he told you that Ukraine fired a missile at his house, and your intelligence said they did not?
President Trump
Well, his ships — his ships left awfully quickly today.
David E. Sanger
Why did he not tell you the truth about the attack on his house?
President Trump
I don’t know. I don’t know if it was the truth or not. He did tell me that his home was attacked —
David E. Sanger
Right? And you found no evidence.
President Trump
— which I would not have been happy about. At the same time. [Phone rings.] Hold it. You like Bret Baier?
David E. Sanger
We always like Bret.
President Trump
[Speaking to Mr. Baier on the phone] Bret, I’m being interviewed by David Sanger and a group of the most brilliant people that you — Katie Rogers — a group of the most brilliant people you’ve ever seen. I’ve actually agreed to an interview with The New York Times. Can you believe it? So, they only treat me badly. But you know, I won in a landslide, so I guess it can’t be that important. [Pauses as Mr. Baier speaks.] All right, OK, I’ll talk to you later. You take care. OK. Bye.
Tyler Pager
Mr. President.
President Trump
By the way, he’s a good guy. He doesn’t — he doesn’t treat me as good as he should, but these are minor details.
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, can I go to —
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Sure.
David E. Sanger
Yeah.
Tyler Pager
I just had a few questions —
David E. Sanger
Are you — are you doing this on Ukraine?
Tyler Pager
On pardons.
David E. Sanger
Oh, let me just finish on Ukraine for one minute.
Tyler Pager
OK.
David E. Sanger
So if Putin rejects this 20-point plan, or he says —
President Trump
Do you think Biden would do an interview like this? I don’t think so.
Karoline Leavitt
Let’s wrap it up, guys.
President Trump
You know where he’d be, right now? He’d be on the floor.
Katie Rogers
He did not do one.
David E. Sanger
We never had an interview with President Biden.
Karoline Leavitt
He changed his phone number after Tyler called him.
Tyler Pager
I did call him and he did change his number.
President Trump
I didn’t.
David E. Sanger
But Tyler called you and you didn’t change your number. If Putin rejected the 20-point plan or just drags it out, are you prepared to go rearm Ukraine?
President Trump
I don’t want to say that. I just don’t want to be in a position to say that, because I have an obligation to see if I can save lives. You know, it’s — the war costs us nothing. We make money with the war now, and even after Biden spent $350 billion, which I think is a number, as you know, I made a deal —
David E. Sanger
Oh, Congress allocated every bit of this.
President Trump
I made a deal. I made a deal with the rare earth. I said, I want to get that money back, because Biden is a fool. He’s a stupid person, and he gave you $350 billion and I told Ukraine — that’s one of the reasons that he wasn’t so happy with me over here. I said, ‘I want to get that money back for America.’ And I got a rare earth deal that could be worth much more than that, OK. I got the money back. But that fool gave $350 billion.
So what I do is I sell them weapons, and they pay full price for the weapons. I don’t even sell them to them. I sell them to NATO. And as you know, I took 2 percent to 5 percent — NATO has a lot of money right now. And, but — I’m not doing it for that. I’m doing it because I want to see — I want to save 25 to 30,000 lives a month. I can’t believe it. You take a stadium and you fill it up with 35,000 people times two. I mean, it’s half of a stadium, a big N.F.L. stadium — that’s half of those people die every month. It’s ridiculous.
David E. Sanger
You famously sat in this room and told Zelensky, ‘You don’t have the cards,’ back in February.
President Trump
That’s true. Well, he doesn’t have the cards. He didn’t — he didn’t have the cards from Day 1.
David E. Sanger
So, he didn’t have them then. Does he have them now?
President Trump
No, he doesn’t.
David E. Sanger
He does not. And what does that mean to your mind? He has to — he has not yet given up on territory? And he has —
President Trump
He’s only got one thing.
David E. Sanger
What?
President Trump
Donald Trump.
Katie Rogers
Can we ask you some quick ones?
President Trump
If he doesn’t have Donald Trump —
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Speed round.
Katie Rogers
Just quick, lightning round.
Tyler Pager
Speed questions.
President Trump
Well, I was in the midst of what I thought was going to be a very good answer.
David E. Sanger
Let’s let him say — if he doesn’t have Donald Trump?
President Trump
If he doesn’t have Donald Trump, that thing would have been a total disaster, and he knows it, and the European leaders know, and everybody knows it.
David E. Sanger
So what’s our timeline now?
President Trump
Well, we’re doing the best we can. I don’t have the timeline. If we do the best we can, I just would like to see the war. It’s not, for us, I think you could have, if I wasn’t involved — I think that could have evolved into a third world war. It was going very badly, very badly. That won’t happen anymore.
Pardons, the first lady and national security
Tyler Pager
Just a couple of quick ones on some pardons that have been requested. Do you plan to pardon Bob Menendez?
President Trump
No.
Tyler Pager
What about Maduro? Is there any scenario where you’d pardon Maduro?
President Trump
No. I don’t see that.
Tyler Pager
Sam Bankman-Fried?
President Trump
I don’t know him at all, no.
Tyler Pager
The crypto — crypto guy.
President Trump
Who?
Tyler Pager
Sam Bankman-Fried, S.B.F., crypto guy.
President Trump
No, I don’t plan to.
Tyler Pager
P. Diddy?
President Trump
No, he’s asked me to, I just haven’t seen it. He was, uh —
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
He asked you for a pardon?
President Trump
He did, he did. He asked me for a pardon —
Tyler Pager
Are you considering it?
President Trump
— through a letter.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
When did he send you the letter?
President Trump
Oh, would you like, oh, would you like to see that letter?
Tyler Pager
Are you considering it?
President Trump
No.
Tyler Pager
And what about Derek Chauvin?
President Trump
Who’s that?
Tyler Pager
The police officer who killed George Floyd.
President Trump
I — I haven’t been asked about it.
Tyler Pager
OK.
Katie Rogers
Can I ask you a couple questions about the first lady?
President Trump 1
Yes.
Katie Rogers
She was against family separations in your first term. What has she told you about them now?
President Trump
Are we talking about, with regard to the borders, et cetera et cetera? I’ll tell you, the first lady is a high-quality person. You’ve written a lot about the first lady. She’s a very high-quality person. She wants to see children saved. She thinks all the children that have been — that have disappeared, they’ve disappeared.
You know, Biden lost 350,000 children — gone. And we’re getting many of them back. It’s the single thing she talks most about, is the children. She talks about the war, but she talks about the war as it relates to children, and she’s gotten a lot of them back. It’s a passion for her. I’ve never seen anything like it.
Katie Rogers
Have you seen her documentary? What’s your favorite part of it?
President Trump
Well, I think it’s going to be very well received. You know, she did a book and she had the No. 1 book —
Katie Rogers
I read it.
President Trump
— she had the No. 1 book for a long time. I mean, she did a great job with the book. I think the movie is going to do very well.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Sir, is Nigeria a one-time strike or part of a broader military campaign?
President Trump
I’d love to make it a one-time strike, but if they continue to kill Christians, it will be a many-times strike.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Your senior Africa adviser, Massad Boulos, said in October that various people were being killed, including more Muslims were being killed in Nigeria.
President Trump
Oh, yes, I hear that, too. I don’t like that at all.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
You didn’t agree with Massad Boulos?
David E. Sanger
Mr. President, in the spirit of the lightning round here, I spent a lot of time thinking about China and reporting about China, and in your first term, you were spending a huge amount of effort to make sure that they did not get our most advanced technologies. Your National Security Strategy identified them as the No. 1 threat as a military, technological, financial competitor.
In the second term, you’ve done it very differently. You’re now shipping them some of our most advanced — not the most, next round down.
President Trump
Not the most.
David E. Sanger
And why did you shift?
President Trump
Well, I have a great relationship with China. I think China and I are doing very well. China is a tremendous source of income for the United States. It used to be a tremendous source of loss.
David E. Sanger
So, Jensen Huang [the chief executive of the chip-making giant Nvidia] was in here and convinced you to —
President Trump
He didn’t convince me. I thought it made sense, because China’s just going to make it themselves — I mean the chips themselves.
David E. Sanger
But Xi Jinping is not going to allow himself to be dependent on our tech.
President Trump
It’s a tremendous source of income for the United States. And we’re not talking about the Blackwell, and we’re not talking about anything else. We’re talking about chips that are very good chips, excellent chips. But China can make those chips themselves, and we get a big percentage of the money. We get 25 percent of all of that, and that’s a lot of money for the United States.
I’ll give you an example. Uh, I, well, Intel. I have so many examples, I could go one after — Intel came in. They had a problem. I said, ‘Give the United States of America 10 percent of Intel.’ The chairman of the board of Intel looked at me, says, ‘You have a deal.’ We made, like, $40 billion off that deal in a short period of time. Nobody’s writing about it. Nobody. In fact, the opposite. They thought it was very rude of me to ask. And I’m asking not for myself. I’m asking for the country, ’cause this is well beyond —
David E. Sanger
Would the old Republican Party have done that? I mean —
President Trump
The old establishment, no.
David E. Sanger
That would’ve sounded a little bit like state socialism to them, right?
President Trump
Yeah, would they have done that? No, because they were stupid. OK, we have a number of deals that are going through right now. I say the United States should be entitled to a piece of those deals, because without the United States, those deals couldn’t be done.
The Trump family’s financial interests and deal-making
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, another difference between your first term and your second term. In your first term, your family agreed not to conduct business abroad.
President Trump
Right.
Tyler Pager
Now it’s doing so all over the world. Why the reversal?
President Trump
Well, because I got no credit in the first term. I don’t have to agree to that. And in the first term, we did nothing. We did — we were just — and my kids were asked to do business all over the place. They run it now. I have a great company, one of the greatest companies, and I think it’s one of the, in terms of beautiful assets, great assets, great property. I was really good at real estate — maybe I was better at real estate than I am at politics.
But my kids, I didn’t let them do anything, because to me, it’s the highest calling. You’re the president of the United States. I got nothing but criticized. As an example, I don’t accept my pay, and I didn’t accept my pay. It’s a lot of money. Two million dollars, $2.5 million over a four-year period. And I didn’t do it the first time. I never had — I don’t believe I ever had a story saying it.
David E. Sanger
Oh, we wrote about it.
Katie Rogers
You did. We wrote about where you donated your salary.
Tyler Pager
We wrote about it.
Katie Rogers
We wrote about where you donated your salary.
President Trump
Well I — I donated — I donated my first-term salary, and I donated my second-term salary.
Katie Rogers
You did get credit — or, as you would call it, credit — but you got coverage for these decisions.
President Trump
Of donating?
David E. Sanger
We certainly wrote about it.
President Trump
I haven’t seen it.
Katie Rogers
Do you not feel like you got enough, and that’s why you reversed course?
President Trump
Well, I think this — I didn’t do deals. I could have done so many deals, and I didn’t do deals.
Tyler Pager
And so why now are you doing the deals?
President Trump
Because I found out that nobody cared. I’m allowed to. You know, George Washington, when he was president — did you know this, in his equivalent of the White House, it was a little before the White House — he had two desks. He had a business desk and he had a president desk, and he did both. It’s OK to do that. I just didn’t think — I didn’t want to do that, and I personally still don’t do it.
But I let my kids, you know, do business. I prohibited them from doing business in my first term, and I got absolutely no credit for it. I didn’t have to do that. And it’s really unfair to them, you know, their business people just — and also, I saw the things that went on with Biden. It was so ridiculous when I looked at the corruption and all of the things. And, you know, I have a very honest family. But I said, why wouldn’t I let them do things and let them do things and let them live their life? Now, these are honest, very honorable people.
Katie Rogers
Is what Biden did corruption? How is this not corruption, then? If you looked at what Biden was doing and said, ‘This is corruption,’ how is this not?
President Trump
No, Biden was total corruption. Look at his son, he got millions of dollars from the oil company in Ukraine, millions of dollars. He knew nothing about oil. That was total corruption.
Tyler Pager
What about —
President Trump
And then you had the thing where his laptop was made by Russia. That was another hoax. It was made by him, in his bathroom.
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, what about when it comes to crypto, an industry that you’ve been heavily involved in. Your sons are engaged in crypto?
David E. Sanger
First term, you were against it.
President Trump
Correct, I was. And then during the campaign, I realized there’s two things. No. 1, China wants it, badly. And No. 2, I thought there’d be a lot of votes if I got behind it, to be honest with you. And I was right. I got a lot of votes because I backed crypto, and I got to understand crypto
Tyler Pager
But do you think?
President Trump
And I got to like it. Now, if the reason I backed it, though, so strongly is that China wanted it, and one of us was going to get it. It’s like A.I. We are leading in A.I. because of me, not because of anybody else. We’re leading because of me, because what I’ve done with A.I. is incredible, including the fact that I devised a plan for electricity, the massive amounts of electricity, where I allow everybody building a plant to build their own electricity-producing unit with the plant.
Nobody had that idea but me and we, because of that, we have all the electricity we need. We had to go to a 200-year-old grid system. [Phone rings.] We have all of the electricity that we need. That — you’d like to know who that is.
[Mr. Trump shows the reporters his cellphone screen.]
Katie Rogers
Show it again.
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, just on A.I. There are many Americans who are concerned that A.I. —
President Trump
Let me turn that off. Yeah, A.I.
Tyler Pager
— A.I. is going to take their jobs, and they will not — will be out of work.
President Trump
I think just the opposite. I think A.I. is going to be a tremendous job producer. I think that we have so many jobs. My biggest problem isn’t taking the jobs. It’s that we don’t have enough people to fill the jobs, and that’s where robots come in.
Tyler Pager
And do you not have concerns about artificial intelligence and the ways in which it can be weaponized?
President Trump
I have — No, I don’t. And I think this: Whoever wins the artificial intelligence war is going to be really the leader of the world.
David E. Sanger
Do you have concern that A.I. is fueling the kind of cyberintrusions that China has mastered?
President Trump
No.
David E. Sanger
I mean, think about Salt Typhoon and others got into your own phone systems, obviously.
President Trump
Yeah, they did, but they — China did that anyway. And we do that to China. You know, we do that to China. I was asked that question on “60 Minutes.” They said, “Well, what about China doing this and this and that?” I said: “Yeah, it’s too bad. We do that” — and we do that to them.
David E. Sanger
Do we go into their grid, as they did, so that they could turn off —
President Trump
We do everything we can to China, and they do everything they can to us.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Sir, are you still considering a Muslim ban?
President Trump
No. I just consider a ban on people that are going to cause problems in our country. I have great Muslim friends. OK. [The White House staff secretary] Will Scharf has a document.
Bring them in, Will.
[Mr. Scharf approaches with two folders.]
How Trump sees his job, immigration policy and Stephen Miller
Katie Rogers
What do you hate about this job?
Will Scharf
Sorry to bother you.
President Trump
I love it. I don’t hate. I love it. You know what I love? I’m making America great again. I’ve made it maybe better than it’s ever been. This country is great again. This country is respected again. We — you are right now the hottest country in the world. A year and a half ago, our country was dead. We had a dead country, dead as a dog. This country was gone. We were going to be Venezuela on steroids. It would have been a worse — it would have been Venezuela times a thousand.
This country now is the hottest country anywhere in the world. Instead of having trillions of dollars coming into our country, we would’ve had trillions of dollars going out. Your welfare rolls would have gone through the roof. The country was gone. If I didn’t get elected, you wouldn’t have jobs right now. That’s my opinion.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Do you think some industries still need immigrant labor?
President Trump
Yes.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Which ones?
President Trump
They need inexpensive — well, there are different things.
David E. Sanger
Do we need people to come in?
President Trump
Just so you understand something: I’m all for people coming into our country through the border legally, if they come in legally. I want them more than they want me and more than they want this country. And if you look at my first term and if you look at this term, I want — we need people. We’re building factories all over the country. We’re build —
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
But you said agriculture and hotels — that you wanted ICE to use common sense against them, right?
President Trump
— but I want them to come in — yeah, respectfully — I want them to come in legally. I want them to use common sense.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Have you directed ICE to ease deportations —
President Trump
Yes, I have.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
— against those industries?
President Trump
Yes, I have.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Are there other industries that you’ve directed ICE to ease deportations?
President Trump
Because I watch farmers, and I deal with farmers, and I won 90 percent of the farmers — more than that and they’re great people. And they have great people working for them who have been working for them for 25 years. They are almost like a member of the family, and I don’t want those people thrown out of the country.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Are there other industries or companies that you’ve directed ICE to ease deportations on?
David E. Sanger
Well, the South Korean case.
President Trump
Some service industries, some — I’ll give you an example in Georgia, with South Korea. They make batteries. Batteries are very complex, and they’re very dangerous to make, and they make them, and they brought in three or four hundred people who specialize in batteries —
David E. Sanger
And ICE grabbed them all.
President Trump
— and they threw them out. And I was very angry about it. You know why? Because they have to open a factory, and you can’t take a person off the street who’s never seen a battery before and think that they’re going to make highly complex batteries.
David E. Sanger
Any other cases where you have told ICE to back off?
President Trump
I’ll tell you, or no — I’ll tell you what’s, what’s happening. We have not only your basic industries, but we have very complex industries coming in. Chip makers, they’re coming in from Taiwan. Computer makers, they’re coming in from all over the world — South Korea, from all over the world in order to avoid tariffs. I want them to be able to bring in some of their experts to help them open their plants and factories, because if they don’t, it’s not going to be possible for them to make that progress.
Tyler Pager
So do you disagree with Stephen Miller on some of this?
President Trump
Well, Stephen’s a very strong voice. I don’t think I disagree with him, no. He’s a strong voice.
Katie Rogers
Have you ever told him no about anything he’s wanted to do? Do you have an example?
President Trump
No, he’s a strong voice on it. He feels that people that come into our country should be able to love our country and be able to contribute. And I agree with that. But I do think this: When a — when you make a deal with some company from South Korea, from China, from wherever, from Taiwan — we have a lot of companies from Taiwan coming in, building chip companies — not because of the CHIPS Act, which was a waste — because they don’t want to pay tariffs.
And they’re coming in — we’re going to have a big percentage of the chip business within two years — but they’re coming in. You have to allow them to bring some of their experts with them, or they’re never going to be able to open their plant or factory.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
It sounds like you were angry at ICE for this raid on the Hyundai facility.
President Trump
I was not happy about it. No, I was not happy about it. They’re making batteries. Batteries are very dangerous and actually very complex, and they brought people that make batteries, and those people would have trained our people how to make batteries. And at some point they would have gone back because they want to go back to their country. They might not want to —
David E. Sanger
Well, chips are even more complex. They’re probably the most complicated thing mankind has ever made —
President Trump
What is?
David E. Sanger
— the most advanced chips.
Tyler Pager
Chips.
President Trump
Chips? Yeah.
David E. Sanger
Right. And, but you said two years. I mean, I don’t see any way in which —
President Trump
Maybe longer. I would say this: Whatever is necessary so that we can have our people learn it.
David E. Sanger
So, ultimately, what percentage of advanced chips —
President Trump
You know, we have chip makers coming in. As you know, I have the biggest chip maker in the world coming in. They’re going to spend 300 to 350 —
David E. Sanger
TSMC.
President Trump
Right, incredible company. Mr. [C.C.] Wei. They’re coming in. They’re going to build in Arizona. They’re building already. One of the largest plants any human being has ever seen. It goes for miles.
David E. Sanger
Been there.
President Trump
It’s going to make chips. I have to let them bring some expertise in. They can’t just open a building and have people that haven’t worked in 10 years. Look at this. [Mr. Trump holds up a newspaper article showing an analysis of 2024 election results.] This is — that’s how America voted. That’s your final count.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Mr. President, what’s the future for —
President Trump
Are you thrilled about that?
Karoline Leavitt
I am.
Katie Rogers
Which is this? Twenty — Twenty — [Katie Rogers looks at the article.] This is not in dispute. You won the election.
President Trump
No, no. Take a look at the amount.
David E. Sanger
[David E. Sanger looks at the article.]
America voted. Which counties shifted to Trump.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Sir, what’s — what’s the future for DACA recipients in your second term?
President Trump
Uh, I’ll let you know in about 12 months from now.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Should they feel safe in the country?
President Trump
I’d love — I’d love to be able to do something for them.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Should they feel safe? And they’ll be able to stay in the U.S.?
President Trump
Yes, they should feel safe, but I’d like to be able to do something.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Can you get — will they get work permits?
President Trump
To be honest, I’d love to be able to create an immigration policy that works for everyone.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
You — like a comprehensive immigration reform?
President Trump
I would love to do it if it was possible.
David E. Sanger
Is Congress willing to go do that? George [W.] Bush tried.
President Trump
It takes two to tango. If the Democrats would do it, I’d do it. I’d love to have a comprehensive immigration policy, something that really worked. It’s about time for the country to have it.
Tyler Pager
What would that look like?
President Trump
Excuse me?
Tyler Pager
What would a comprehensive immigration policy —
President Trump
I don’t want to go into that because it’s a very — it’s a very ticklish subject. But I believe that there is a plan that can work for everybody. It takes two to tango. The Democrats have to agree. But the Democrats are their own worst enemy. That’s why they’re not sitting in this office. That’s why I am.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Would this immigration legislation involve —
President Trump
But I would love to see comprehensive immigration. I would love to see a plan that really worked for everyone.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Including pathway to citizenship for those undocumented here?
President Trump
Possibly. Possibly.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
What would that legislation look like?
President Trump
It’s — it’s — I don’t want to talk about that, but possibly.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
What about — what about Venezuelans currently on asylum in the country here, with everything that’s happened in Venezuela, this military operation?
President Trump
They’ll be treated well. They’ll be treated fine.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
They’re going to be allowed to stay in the United States?
President Trump
Many, well, many of them are going to want to go back. You know you have many Venezuelans —
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
They fled the — they fled the current government there.
President Trump
You guys are amazing. [There is cross-talk.] What a team.
Karoline Leavitt
Guys, no. It’s been an hour and a half.
David E. Sanger
When you gave, when you gave — when you gave your talk on Venezuela — [There is cross-talk.] OK, we’ll get out of your way.
President Trump
And then they’ll say, “Oh, Trump was tired. He was” — I’m not tired. In fact, after this I have to —
[There is cross-talk.]
Karoline Leavitt
Two and a half hours.
President Trump
I actually — I actually love it. It’s like —
Katie Rogers
Can we have a tour?
President Trump
— it’s almost like competition. I’ll give you a tour. Did you see?
[Mr. Trump gestures to the West Colonnade, where he has installed a series of plaques below pictures of each president, except Joseph R. Biden Jr., who is depicted as an autopen.]
Did you see the —
Katie Rogers
No, we haven’t. I have not seen it in person.
President Trump
Well I’ll show you. You didn’t see the “Walk of Fame”?
Katie Rogers
I have not seen it in person.
Tyler Pager
And we want to see the renovations you’ve made to the rest of the White House.
President Trump
Well, I’ll do that, but maybe I’ll do that at another time. I mean, you know. But they are beautiful.
David E. Sanger
Mr. President, when are you —
President Trump
You know, the Lincoln bathroom, as an example. People — “Oh, Lincoln!” — it’s a masterpiece. I took the equivalent of Home Depot tiles — the worst. It was done in the 1940s. It was so bad, falling apart. Doug probably saw it, right?
Doug Mills
Yeah.
President Trump
And I made it into what would have been used at the highest level, the most gorgeous marble. With the best — with the best —
David E. Sanger
And what have you done to the Lincoln Bedroom?
President Trump
Yeah, I did numerous things to upgrade it. Yeah, I upgrade everything. I’m an upgrader. I’m great real estate — I am a great real estate guy. And that building being built right across the way, that beautiful building being built? They’ll be thanking me.
David E. Sanger
Are you talking about the ballroom?
President Trump
They’ll be thanking me. And they already are, most people. But it really needs it. You know, we had the King of Saudi Arabia here. We had a hundred people in the room. You can’t get anybody in the room. That will fill up, and it’ll be used for the inauguration. Get me the model real fast. I’ll show them. Should I?
Yeah, we’d love to see it.
Karoline Leavitt
Might as well.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Sir — and also Mayor [Zohran] Mamdani [of New York City] criticized your operation in Venezuela.
President Trump
Yeah, I was surprised.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
What’s your response to that?
President Trump
Oh, I was surprised. I thought it was awfully quick for him to be criticizing. We’ve had numerous conversations. We get along great. I thought it was quick to be criticized. I thought he’d wait at least a month.
Tyler Pager
How long do you think you’ll be running Venezuela?
President Trump
Only time will tell.
Tyler Pager
Three months? Six months? A year? Longer?
President Trump
I would say much longer than that.
David E. Sanger
Much longer. And move to elections?
Tyler Pager
Much longer than a year?
President Trump
We have to rebuild. You have to rebuild the country, and we will rebuild it in a very profitable way. We’re going to be using oil, and we’re going to be taking oil. We’re getting oil prices down, and we’re going to be giving money to Venezuela, which they desperately need. We’re going to be helping —
David E. Sanger
You talked a lot about — you talked about oil and money, but you didn’t talk a whole lot about democracy with Venezuela. So, when — and they’ve got a long democratic tradition. When do they get back to elections?
[A valet enters with a model of the White House and the ballroom project.]
President Trump
I love democracy. I’m a big fan. [Mr. Trump turns to the model.] Let me show this before we talk about — wait — before I talk about democracy.
Tyler Pager
But just quickly, do you plan to go to Venezuela?
President Trump
I would love to go, yeah. I think at some point it’ll be safe, believe it or not. I would love to go. Basically —
Will Scharf
This is Treasury. This should be over —
President Trump
This is the Treasury Building. OK, that goes over here.
[Mr. Trump positions a model of the Treasury on top of the model of the White House complex and its surrounding buildings.]
So this —
[Katie Rogers looks at the folders that Mr. Scharf is holding.]
Katie Rogers
Is that an executive order?
Will Scharf
These are two personnel actions that [the White House deputy chief of staff Dan] Scavino’s team asked the president to —
President Trump
Oh, I’ll sign it in two seconds.
Will Scharf
Sorry, sir.
President Trump
This is a much more important thing to do. So, this is the ballroom right here. It’s beautiful. People love it. It’ll hold — it’s being designed with bulletproof glass, 4 to 5 inches thick. Can take just about any weapon that we know of. I wish I was in it about a little while ago. [Mr. Trump laughs.]
[Mr. Trump speaks briefly off the record.]
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, on the record, you haven’t even been here a year yet, and you’ve made many renovations. Are there other plans for you to make changes?
President Trump
Well, the big one is going to be the arc. The arc is going to be unbelievable.
Tyler Pager
What about at the White House complex?
President Trump
I may do an upper West Wing. This area. Cover it with one floor because it needs more space. It would be —
David E. Sanger
Including the Oval? Or Oval would be separate?
President Trump
No, less. Short of the Oval. If you take the L [shape] —
David E. Sanger
So you’d put it up — there’s a second floor. It’s sort of in the attic.
President Trump
Well there’s a second floor now that was, that was meant to be a park. People don’t use it as a park. Now with long-range rifles, you tend not to use it.
Tyler Pager
So you’re going to add — you would want to add another floor on top of that?
President Trump
What we may do — it’s under design. If I like it, I do — pretty simple, I mean, peanuts compared to this. This is a big — this an incredible thing. This — this building will be — and see the way it fits, like a, you know, it fits beautifully.
Tyler Pager
Wait, so what would you do? Just to — I just want to make sure we understand. You’d add a third floor on top of the West Wing?
President Trump
Uh, I would take the park —
Katie Rogers
The L. Is that why you were on the roof that day?
President Trump
Exactly.
Katie Rogers
What were you doing?
President Trump
I was looking at doing office space.
David E. Sanger
So would you do it on the West Wing? Would you do it on the arcade?
President Trump
I would do it here — arcade and over to here, to about here. Here’s the Oval.
David E. Sanger
Until you stop at the Oval.
Tyler Pager
Building office —
President Trump
I’ve got to show — I shouldn’t do this, but I have to do it. I’m sorry, Karoline. Here’s my son holding a snake.
[Mr. Trump stops midsentence, leans over and pulls out of his desk a printed Instagram photo of his son Donald Trump Jr., who is smiling and holding up a rattlesnake.]
Do you believe that? No, do you believe that? That’s a cottonmouth rattlesnake. He’s a great hunter, but I said, “You know, ultimately they win.” I don’t like it. Don. No boots, no nothing. He was — he was born for that.
[The reporters look at the photo, in which the president’s son is wearing flip-flops.]
Katie Rogers
Flip-flops around that.
President Trump
But I said, “Ultimately, they win.” You better be careful. So ready? Don’t take any pictures of this ’cause you’ll scare people. So I started off with a building half of the seats —
[Mr. Trump puts a model for a new White House ballroom on the table.]
— and then it just kept growing and growing, and the money kept pouring in and pouring in. No, no, please. So I started with that — started with this.
[Mr. Trump puts a model of what he said was the smaller, original planned ballroom on the table.]
And I said: “Wow, I’ve got all this beautiful land. I don’t want to waste it.” So I said: “All right. I’ll go a little bit larger.” This would have seat — seated 450 people. So I said, “Let’s go a little bit larger.” So then I said, “Let’s do this.”
[Mr. Trump removes the smaller model and puts another model for the new ballroom on the table.]
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
What’s the updated price tag on all this?
President Trump
Well, every time I make it larger it goes — but I’ll do it for — I’m under budget and ahead of schedule. You know, I’m — I’d build it larger.
David E. Sanger
Are you at about $400 million now?
President Trump
I’ll bring it in for less than — it’s, it’s ahead of schedule and under budget so far.
David E. Sanger
What’s the budget?
President Trump
Under $400 million.
David E. Sanger
And that’s just the aboveground, not —
President Trump
That’s the aboveground.
Tyler Pager
And what would be on top of the arcade, there?
President Trump
A little work done, you know, with footings and stuff. But basically, that’s what —
Tyler Pager
You would build on that, the office space on top of the colonnade?
President Trump
Of this? This is very small. This is, you know, very small.
Tyler Pager
What would it be there?
President Trump
Couple of million bucks.
Tyler Pager
But what would it — offices?
Katie Rogersid you say office space?
President Trump
Oh, well, we call it the Upper West Wing. It could be — it would be additional office space for the West Wing, which is very necessary. It could be first ladies’ offices, for future first ladies. It could be, you know, anything having to do — basically, it would start here, and it would go up to here.
Katie Rogers
Are you doing anything out here on the lawn anywhere? [Katie Rogers gestures to the South Lawn on the model.]
President Trump
Well, we did the tennis court, as you know. It’s beautiful, very well received.
Tyler Pager
Where are you going to put the hall of American heroes?
President Trump
That’s going to be most likely right on the Potomac River.
Tyler Pager
Right off the golf course?
President Trump
No, if you go to the other side of the roads, you’ll see this — an area that is touching the golf course.
Tyler Pager
So is that part of why you took over the leases for the golf courses?
President Trump
Yeah, more or less. It’s going be a beautiful complex. You’re going to have the hall of — you know, it’s — we’ll call it a hall. We call it a lot of things, but the memorials or statues are going to — it’s going to be beautiful. That hasn’t been a final decision, but it’s getting close.
Tyler Pager
Have you made any changes to the residence? Have you made any significant changes to the residence?
President Trump
Residence?
Tyler Pager
Of the White House.
President Trump
Oh, over here?
[Mr. Trump looks at the model of the White House.]
Tyler Pager
Yeah.
David E. Sanger
The Lincoln Bedroom, the bathroom, anything else?
President Trump
Yeah, I uh, significant, no. But quality, yes. As an example, have you seen the white marble floor in there?
Tyler Pager
No.
Katie Rogers
No.
President Trump
Well, I’m going back up, so if you want, you could follow me. Oh, let me just finish this. So I said, “Boy, that’s so beautiful, but maybe I can do it bigger.” I got this land. It’s cherished land. You know, this is not like land, even like — I’m using Clark Construction. They’re the biggest builder in the town. You know, I’m using them as my engineer. And I said, “You know, what do you think?” They said: “Sir, we’ll do it for nothing. This is the greatest honor.” If they were building here, it would be — but you’re building on this cherished, cherished piece of land this one. This will be such a beautiful building, also very much in keeping with the White House. As an example, the back of the building is exactly identical to the White House. It’s — so when you look at it, this is actually the front of the building, actually, but it’ll be very much in keeping with the White House, you see? So — and I think beautiful — so then I said, “But maybe, just maybe, I should go larger.” So then I said, “Well, OK, let’s max it out.”
[Mr. Trump places the model of the largest version of the ballroom on the table.]
This is more like Trump, isn’t it? Let’s max it out. And I said, “Wow, let’s do that.” Now, that’s, that’s the big one. This actually would attach. That’s the big one, and that’s maxed out. And I said, “But you know what? It’s too big.”
Katie Rogers
How many people would that fit?
President Trump
This would fit a lot of people.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
The last number you said was — was, what, right under 1,000?
President Trump
Well, this should have over a thousand. This one, but I’m not —
David E. Sanger
You didn’t go with that in the end?
President Trump
No, I’m not. I thought it was too big. See, see? I thought it was too big.
David E. Sanger
There are limits.
President Trump
Can you believe it? There are limits. Yeah, but I would have the right to do that. But I thought it was too big, and it wasn’t right for the site, you know. Now, when you look at the other one, it’s like — but, you know, it had certain advantages. What we’re doing — this is very much designed also for the inauguration, because — so I only had 940 people. I — we would have had thousands. It was so cold out and dangerous outside. You know, it’s not like it was 30 years ago. You’ve got to make a speech today. They got the long ranges. They can go 10 football fields, OK. So anyway, so when you look at that, and then you look at this — but it’s being designed very much with the inauguration in mind. It’ll be able to hold six times what the Capitol can hold, and it’s all bulletproof glass, drone-proof roof. Yeah, serious. The biggest drone could crash into it — you wouldn’t — you’d hear a little noise up there, it wouldn’t be bad. But we have that, also in terms of everything else with the inauguration in mind. This is actually going to be columns. This is a few weeks old. This is going to be beautiful columns, very much like that.
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
What else are you looking to build? Are you — are you doing [Washington] Dulles [International Airport]? Are you going to —
President Trump
Yes, I’m going to make Dulles into a great airport.
Tyler Pager
Is it going to be called Trump?
President Trump
It’s the worst airport in the country right now.
Tyler Pager
Do you want to rename — it to be renamed after you?
President Trump
No, I didn’t. People are asking me about that, but I have not suggested it. People are suggesting that all over. In Florida, they’re renaming South Ocean Boulevard, which is a big deal. That’s the road you come down. You have all the people screaming.
Tyler Pager
What are they calling it?
President Trump
They’re renaming — I didn’t do it. It was a wonderful group of people that did it, including [Gov.] Ron DeSantis [of Florida]. They’re changing the name, I don’t know, Trump. Let’s see, South Ocean Boulevard, Trump Boulevard. So they’re dedicating it.
Katie Rogers
How interested are you in your library and the development of that and the building of that?
President Trump
Oh, it’s moving along. It’s beautiful — be in Miami, most likely. We have a lot of people. A lot of people want to do sites — Tennessee — a lot of people. But most likely it’s going to go to Miami.
David E. Sanger
Why not New York or at Penn or —
President Trump
I don’t know, it’s just — I’m worried about New York. I’m worried about New York.
Katie Rogers
What do you mean?
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
Do you still have a good relationship with Mamdani?
President Trump
Well, I did, but he hit me sooner than I thought. I thought it would take him at least a month. I mean, he hit me on Venezuela.
President Trump
He didn’t. We didn’t talk about it. Oh, yeah, we did. He called and said: “I just want to let you know. I’m going to come out against —”
Zolan Kanno-Youngs
He called you beforehand?
President Trump
Uh, he called me after it was done, after this incredible military, financial and psychological success. He called me to say that, respectfully, I disagree with what you did. And I said, “Give me a reason why.” And I didn’t feel he had a reason, but he disagreed nevertheless. I would say it was politics more than anything else. Although I think it’s bad politics. I think it’s been one of the very successful — it’s been one of the greatest military success — nobody’s ever seen anything like it. We attacked a fort with thousands of people and soldiers in that fort. You know, that was built there. It was built as a safe house with sealed doors and everything else. [Mr. Trump makes a sound like an explosion.] It was like they were paper.
David E. Sanger
Have you seen the model of it that they built in Kentucky?
President Trump
Yeah, I did.
David E. Sanger
Did you go to it at any point?
President Trump
Well, I don’t want to say that. But, yeah, we built an exact model. And I asked some of the guys, and I said, “How was it, in terms” — he said it was exact.
David E. Sanger
Did you watch either by video —
President Trump
I did. I was, I saw it.
David E. Sanger
What — what did that feel like? You were down at Mar-a-Lago?
President Trump
It’s like watching a movie, except you’re — it’s a little bit, you know — look, you don’t know if —
Katie Rogers
Are you worried when this is happening, while you’re watching? Or what is going through your mind?
President Trump
Yeah, I’m worried that it ends up being Jimmy Carter disaster that destroyed his entire administration.
Tyler Pager
Do you have any —
President Trump
I don’t know that he would have won the election but he certainly had no chance after that disaster. I mean, that’s — we had the helicopters and the crashes and the people running around and the hostages. How many were there, David? How many hostages?
David E. Sanger
Hostages at the time? Boy, there were — wish I knew. It was 40 or 50, yeah.
President Trump
So you know, that destroyed — that destroyed him. I don’t know. Would he have been destroyed? What impact did that have on his election?
David E. Sanger
Probably pretty big.
President Trump
Would you say that he would have won the election if that —
David E. Sanger
His secretary of state also quit because he had advised against the operation.
President Trump
That’s nice. Nice loyal secretary of state.
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, do you plan any other —
President Trump
But do you think he would have won or lost the election had that not happened?
David E. Sanger
Probably because of the economy, he probably would have lost anyway, yeah. Didn’t help, though.
President Trump
Well, let’s put it this way. After that, he didn’t have a chance. So when you say — and mine was a much bigger event.
Katie Rogers
Yeah, do you feel the weight of that when you’re watching —
President Trump
This was a much more powerful event. This would have been — yeah, if it, if it didn’t work out, it would have been a tremendous blow. But not only did it not — well, remember this, I did [the former leader of the Quds Force of Iran, Maj. Gen. Qassim] Suleimani — perfect. I did [the former Islamic State leader Abu Bakr] al-Baghdadi — perfect. I did the Iran nuclear attack.
David E. Sanger
Each one of those, sir, was a one-off, you know, attack, where you could attack and then retreat. You are now in the middle of an occupation —
President Trump
But let me ask you a question: Of the four things that we talked about —
David E. Sanger
A remote control.
President Trump
— and I did other stuff — which is the most important? Al-Baghdadi, Suleimani, this one or the Iran nuclear attack?
David E. Sanger
I think people would probably disagree on that, but I think a lot of people would argue that anything that set back Iran from getting a nuclear weapon may have been the most important.
President Trump
I would say. And yet this seems to get more — more interest in this one than the other three.
David E. Sanger
But this has got more complication for you —
President Trump
Very complicated.
David E. Sanger
Because you’re going to have years —
President Trump
Oh, I see, you mean future complication.
David E. Sanger
— future — you’re going to have years in which you’re going to have to —
Tyler Pager
You said it’s going to be more than a year.
David E. Sanger
Yeah, you’re going to have to decide: Am I sending in troops?
[Mr. Trump speaks briefly off the record.]
Tyler Pager
Mr. President, on the record, just the —
[There is cross-talk.]
Tyler Pager
On the success of the Maduro operation. Does it mean — give you confidence? Or does it mean you’re going to pursue future military action against Mexico or Colombia or other countries in the Caribbean?
President Trump
No, but it — I didn’t need confidence. I have a lot of confidence in my people, in my military. I built the military. Remember this: Our military, when I took over in my first term, was a mess. I rebuilt the entire military, and now I’m doing it even more so. So, our military’s great. And more importantly, we’re the best soldiers.
David E. Sanger
Did you study some other occupations? Japan, Iraq, others?
President Trump
Yes, yes. I studied, I studied —
David E. Sanger
And what — what lesson did you draw from that, that we should know —
President Trump
That it’s highly risky.
David E. Sanger
— for Venezuela?
President Trump
That’s what I do.
David E. Sanger
OK, so —
President Trump
I looked at — I looked at some of the attacks. I studied the Carter attack. It was a disaster. I would have never done it that way.
David E. Sanger
You were talking about the attack. I was asking about the occupations that followed —
President Trump
You know, they had — they had a — they had a sandstorm. Did you know that? And they decided to go forward. We would go back, and let’s hit it three days later. They wanted to go forward, and they said, keep going. Helicopters don’t work well in the sand.
Karoline Leavitt
Sir, do you want to show them the renovations?
President Trump
Yeah, let’s go, come on. We’ve had enough. Nice setup, right?
Karoline Leavitt
Two hours.
President Trump
Katie, good? Two hours, Katie — I could go nine hours.
[After the interview, Mr. Trump walks the reporters through the White House and official residence.]
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